Give me a break, Osama practically controlled the Taliban, Al-Quaeda leads the Taliban insurgency because the taliban were so weak. They offered to turn him to a third-party country like Yemen where he would have "miraculously" been found innocent or would have escaped.

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"...Follow the crystal star to the pyre of the flame; there exists the dwelling of the spreading fire. The heart of this life rests upon the fate of that place, and what begins there sends a contagion to the rest of the universe.
As long as the fire burns we shall never be free..." (The Shadows of Yavara, Final Reclamation)

They might well be outraged, but getting "payback" won't help, because once you get that you will also kill many innocents just as those who attacked you did. So then these inocents families and friends will seek payback of their own, and it goes on and on. In the land of an eye for an eye wer all end up blind.

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Viva Fidel

"If there ever was in the history of humanity an enemy who was truly universal, an enemy whose acts and moves trouble the entire world, threaten the entire world, attack the entire world in any way or another, that real and really universal enemy is precisely Yankee imperialism"

"North Americans don't understand... that our country is not just Cuba; our country is also humanity"

It would also present a compelling case in point for national security and taking specific terrorist groups out of action. Country's have a right to self defense.

Defense, yes. However, the ventures in Iraq and Afghanistan are an example of national stupidity. They have made the countries involved less safe. More Americans and Brits have certainly died as a result of their short sighted stupidity than of any previous terrorist attack.

__________________
Viva Fidel

"If there ever was in the history of humanity an enemy who was truly universal, an enemy whose acts and moves trouble the entire world, threaten the entire world, attack the entire world in any way or another, that real and really universal enemy is precisely Yankee imperialism"

"North Americans don't understand... that our country is not just Cuba; our country is also humanity"

Well they are not my enemy they are neither my friend. There are lots of governments and political parties i have similar feelings about. The United States is a cruel regime, they may be "the great enemy of mankind", but they are not my personal enemy. It is not my job to change them. The same for Zimbabwe, China even Israel, they are cruel in their own way, unjust in their own way. I still maintain they are no personal enemy of mine.

__________________
Viva Fidel

"If there ever was in the history of humanity an enemy who was truly universal, an enemy whose acts and moves trouble the entire world, threaten the entire world, attack the entire world in any way or another, that real and really universal enemy is precisely Yankee imperialism"

"North Americans don't understand... that our country is not just Cuba; our country is also humanity"

Personal enemy maybe not, but if someone asked me if the taliban/Saudi regime/Bush's administration/Mugabe etc... are my enemy I'd say yes, the enemy of the people is my enemy also. But I'm not saying it's our job to change the regime, certainly not through war.

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Trust me, I'm a socialist!

There's power in a factory,power in the land, power in the hand of the worker. But it all amounts to nothing if together we don't stand, there is power in a union.
The union forever defending our rights, down with the blackleg, workers unite. To our brothers and our sisters in many far off lands, there is power in a union.
Money speaks for money, the devil for his own. - Billy Bragg

As i've said once already, the terrorist attacks on Britain by Islamic groups are as a direct result of the wars on the middle east, and that many more Afghani civilians have died in our war than British civilians would die in a 9/11 type terrorist attack.

__________________
Trust me, I'm a socialist!

There's power in a factory,power in the land, power in the hand of the worker. But it all amounts to nothing if together we don't stand, there is power in a union.
The union forever defending our rights, down with the blackleg, workers unite. To our brothers and our sisters in many far off lands, there is power in a union.
Money speaks for money, the devil for his own. - Billy Bragg

Every nation defeated in war will be temporarily less safe as governments change hands. But on the contrary both nations are FAR more safe than they were before. The deaths and terror at the hands of BOTH the Taliban and Saddam created safety through terror. Thats what citizens of both nations attest to. There was no violence, because we were under martial law, because anyone who speaks up will get their throat slit at night. Thats not security and its definately not stability.

I would argue there is more stability in both Iraq and Afghanistan than has been seen in decades, even with all the bombings. I say this because for all of the lacks in stability, what stability is being put into place is real stability and real freedom. Its just the begining and its the first taste of it for most of the people who lived in the region. But its forming slowly, despite the efforts of extremists.

We all know that the violence in both nations is terrible (noted that 95% is caused by terrrorist bombings, death squads, and extremist gangs), and that the spark for it was coalition intervention, but it wasnt caused because of us. The anarchy that followed the ends of the repressive regimes left a gap for sides who had never had a say in politics or freedom and wanted to take it all and get all they could, it was a cultural timebomb much like the balkans before WWI. The fact that Saddam kept "order" via terror does not mean Iraq was secure and it does not mean the people lived happier lives. To any just and better end, there are costs associated. The fewer there are the better, and if our enemies are determined to slaughter their own people, then all we can do is try to protect those people as if they were our own, until governments who truly care about their people and represent their people are elected.

__________________
"...Follow the crystal star to the pyre of the flame; there exists the dwelling of the spreading fire. The heart of this life rests upon the fate of that place, and what begins there sends a contagion to the rest of the universe.
As long as the fire burns we shall never be free..." (The Shadows of Yavara, Final Reclamation)

The war in Afghanistan is NOT a war of occupation. its objective was to capture Osama bin Laden, destroy al-Qaeda, and remove the Taliban regime which had provided support and safe harbor to al-Qaeda. BTW, the Taliban regime was an illegal one, established by force and its government was recognised by only two countries, one of which was Pakistan - the country that supplied and armed them. The war was launched with the assistance of the Afghani Northern Alliance.

You say the Afghanis don't want us there. Really? Where on earth do get your information? Funny then, isn't it, that we find ourselves fighting side by side with the Afghanis. That the Afghani government wants us to stay, as do most of the afghanis themselves - apart from the poppy growers who are financed by the Taliban. Those not wanted in Afghanistan are the Taliban insurgents.

So the Taliban are no enemies of yours, eh. Well perhaps you should do a bit of reading on them. In particular, read up on the massacre at Mazar-i-Sharif. This is where the Taliban drove the streets for two or three days firing at anything that moved, whether it be human or animal. They killed over 8,000 civilians in Mazar-i-Sharif! And, left the bodies to rot for days ignoring the Islamic credence of immediate burial.

Lancer: