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  #51 (permalink)  
Old 07-09-2008, 08:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oregon Elephant View Post
Sure, find some quotes of Bush supporting the use of military force to force a regime change in Cuba.
And where does any Iranian leader call for military force in Israel?

TThey may support the Palestinian resistance. However, this is no less than the US government supporting the anti CUban terrorists. Which you cannot deny they do. Everyone knows they do, Carriles, Bosch and every sordid thing that goes on at the school of the americas.
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  #52 (permalink)  
Old 07-09-2008, 08:59 PM
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Originally Posted by pjohns View Post
And I'm sure you can find plenty of support for that view--from, say, Iran Daily to The Moscow Times. Or perhaps Pravda.
Well why dont you find some evidence contrary to that view. Go on, i dare you !!!

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Originally Posted by pjohns View Post
Do you not suppose it is possible that Iran is biding its time until it acquires nukes? Then it will be in a much better position to attack Israel, as well as to blackmail the rest of the West.
And its possible the sun wont rise tomorrow. Its possible that the world will end tomorrow. It's possible that the US will nuke Russia. Lets deal with probabilities, not the world of fantasy and possibilities.

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Originally Posted by pjohns View Post
And it has attacked American soldiers in Iraq, through its cat's paw, Hezbollah. But the verb should not be limited to the past tense. It continues to do so regularly, notwithstanding the predictable denials by Iran's apologists.
Oh yes. The US regime tells us this so it must be true. The same US regime that said there were WMD's in Iraq. Forgive me for not taking their word for it.

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Originally Posted by pjohns View Post
Well, some people might think that the fact that even the IAEA inspectors--who continue to prove themselves impotent to frustrate Tehran's nuclear ambitions--have loudly complained that Iran has not been entirely forthcoming with its required disclosures, might suggest that the Iranian leadership has something to hide.
All i see is speculation and hearsay. When your cronies find something that even resembles evidence i may start to listen.

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Originally Posted by pjohns View Post
This is so utterly replete with misinformation that it is hard to know where to begin. But I will try.

(1) Those to whom you refer (somewhat ineloquently) as "nutters" are, presumably, millenarians. To prejudice the issue with accusations of lunacy in probably not helpful.

(2) Most millenarians are either fundamentalists, evangelicals, or charismatics; among whom, there is fairly considerable overlap. But these groups, taken together, comprise only a small percentage of American Christians; and an even smaller percentage of the entire American citizenry.

(3) Not all fundamentalist and evangelical Christians hold chiliastic beliefs (though most charismatic Christians appear to), further reducing the percentage of Americans who eagerly await the Rapture.

(4) It is the president, not the general populace, who determines foreign policy. And I frankly have no idea as to what President Bush's eschatological views may be; more importantly, however, I have no reason to believe that his private religious beliefs have in any way influenced his public acts as president.

(5) And who are all these Israelis whom you describe as being among those with heightened eschatological views?



Such heated language could be taken to suggest that you are running low on arguments of a more serious nature.

No bother mate. I am running low on argument. Hate to break it to you, but i'm not the fantacist speculating contrary to all evidence, and believing everything the imperialist warmongers in Washington say.

Maybe i am giving the US zionists and Israeli leadership too much credit, given that they dont even understand judaism. They dont even understand how their taking the land they have is against gods will. Only God, without man having lifted a finger can give the jews Israel. Maybe they just choose to ignore that.
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  #53 (permalink)  
Old 07-09-2008, 10:07 PM
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Only God, without man having lifted a finger can give the jews Israel. Maybe they just choose to ignore that.

God did promise the land to the Jews ( (Gen. 12:7, 13:15, 15:18, 17), and after wandering 40 years through the desert, led them there.
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  #54 (permalink)  
Old 07-09-2008, 10:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Comrade Joe View Post
Well why dont you find some evidence contrary to that view. Go on, i dare you !!!
With three exclamation points, yet. The local provincialism for that would be a double-dog dare--or more accurately, perhaps, a triple-dog dare, although I have never heard it expressed quite that way.

This piece of bravado refers to a two-part observation, concerning both Iran's nascent nuclear program and its ongoing murder of American military personnel. As to the former, I will defer for the moment; it being obvious that no amount of evidence, including Iran's constant stonewalling of the IAEA, would be sufficient to convince you of their nuclear-weaponry intentions. As the singing duo, Simon and Garfunkel, sang in "The Boxer" about 40 years ago: "A man hears what he wants to hear, and disregards the rest."

As to the latter point, I would suggest a recent Hot Air blog, which notes that "(a) Hezbollah officials have already been captured inside Iraq, (b) members of the Mahdi Army have admitted to training with Hezbollah, (c) per Petraeus’s testimony before Congress, Iran is trying to build an Iraqi version of Hezbollah, and (d) according to military sources quoted last month in the NYT, Hezbollah’s training Shiite militiamen in Iran." And although I am confident that this, too, will be dismissed out of hand, I will provide you (and others, interested in the matter) with the pertinent link: Hot Air inside Iraq

Quote:
Originally Posted by Comrade Joe View Post
And its possible the sun wont rise tomorrow. Its possible that the world will end tomorrow. It's possible that the US will nuke Russia. Lets deal with probabilities, not the world of fantasy and possibilities.
You are suggesting, then, that the possibility that Iran is marking time, as it busily works to enhance its military might, is roughly equivalent to the possibility that "the sun wont rise tomorrow," "the world will end tomorrow," or that "the US will nuke Russia" in the foreseeable future. Is that about right?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Comrade Joe View Post
Oh yes. The US regime tells us this so it must be true. The same US regime that said there were WMD's in Iraq. Forgive me for not taking their word for it.
Even if you believe that Saddam never possessed WMD--and the absense of evidence is not the evidence of absence, as the old saying goes--the most damning case you can possibly make about the Bush Administration's proclamations in this regard is that they were honestly mistaken. Although I have heard the silly mantra, "Bush lied, people died," ad nauseum, I have yet to see or hear even the flimsiest piece of evidence in support of this position.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Comrade Joe View Post
All i see is speculation and hearsay. When your cronies find something that even resembles evidence i may start to listen.
Now let me get this straight: Iran will not fully cooperate with the IAEA, making it impossible for that body to compile the evidence as regarding that suspect country's nuclear program; and since the pertinent evidence remains hidden, it would be pure "speculation and hearsay" to conclude that Iran has embarked upon a nuclear-weapons program. Is that essentially your argument?

Last edited by pjohns : 07-09-2008 at 10:50 PM.
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  #55 (permalink)  
Old 07-10-2008, 01:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Comrade Joe View Post
And where does any Iranian leader call for military force in Israel?

TThey may support the Palestinian resistance. However, this is no less than the US government supporting the anti CUban terrorists. Which you cannot deny they do. Everyone knows they do, Carriles, Bosch and every sordid thing that goes on at the school of the americas.
"Our dear Imam (referring to Ayatollah Khomeini) said that the occupying regime must be wiped off the map and this was a very wise statement. We cannot compromise over the issue of Palestine. Is it possible to create a new front in the heart of an old front. This would be a defeat and whoever accepts the legitimacy of this regime has in fact, signed the defeat of the Islamic world. Our dear Imam targeted the heart of the world oppressor in his struggle, meaning the occupying regime. I have no doubt that the new wave that has started in Palestine, and we witness it in the Islamic world too, will eliminate this disgraceful stain from the Islamic world."

"Those who think they can revive the stinking corpse of the usurping and fake Israeli regime by throwing a birthday party are seriously mistaken. Today the reason for the Zionist regime's existence is questioned, and this regime is on its way to annihilation."

"You should know that the criminal and terrorist Zionist regime which has 60 years of plundering, aggression and crimes in its file has reached the end of its work and will soon disappear off the geographical scene."


I suppose that "eliminate this disgraceful stain," "disappear off the geographical scene," and "is on its way to annihilation" mean peaceful routes, right? So, once again we ask, can you find a single quote of Bush saying anything similar to "eliminate this disgraceful stain" about Cuba?
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  #56 (permalink)  
Old 07-10-2008, 01:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Comrade Joe View Post
You obviously are ignorant. Ahmadinejad never said wipe off the map. FInd the word for word quote and you would know this. Geez how gullible are people.
Just because you are programmed to believe that Ahmadinejad didn't say it does not take away from the fact that he did. You obviously are in complete denial of the facts in this case. I'm not going to exchange ideas and thoughts with someone that resorts to insults when at a loss of words. I don't take to kindly to being called ignorant.

I was expecting you to post those Bush comments that you say exist, but at this point there is no need to. I see your game quite clearly now. Sure, I could take a bite but it would be in poor taste.

Maybe the "report post" function is in order at this juncture.

Last edited by Jester : 07-10-2008 at 01:58 AM.
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  #57 (permalink)  
Old 07-10-2008, 02:01 AM
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Just because you are programmed to believe that Ahmadinejad didn't say it does not take away from the fact that he did. You obviously are in complete denial of the facts in this case. I'm not going to exchange ideas and thoughts with someone that resorts to insults when at a loss of words. I don't take to kindly to being called ignorant.

I was expecting you to post those Bush comments that you say exist, but at this point there is no need to. I see your game quite clearly now. Sure, I could take a bite but it would be in poor taste.

Maybe the "report post" function is in order at this juncture.
Fill your boots and report AD.

Anyone who claims Ahmadinejad ever uttered the words "wipe off the map" by definition is ignorant of this issue.

And acts count more than words. The US harbours anti Cuban terrorists in Miami. Jeb Bush even pardoned one of them.
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"North Americans don't understand... that our country is not just Cuba; our country is also humanity"
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  #58 (permalink)  
Old 07-10-2008, 02:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Comrade Joe View Post
Anyone who claims Ahmadinejad ever uttered the words "wipe off the map" by definition is ignorant of this issue.
The proof is posted below. I have posted the links individually so that it facilitates the learning process.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Comrade Joe View Post
And acts count more than words. The US harbours anti Cuban terrorists in Miami. Jeb Bush even pardoned one of them.
What are you jabbering about? This comment makes the strawman on the Wizard of Oz look like an amateur.



If anyone is interested, here is what Ahmadinejad said about wiping out Israel. I like to deal with the facts, and I never rely on others to "school" me on world issues. The facts are out there, if you dare to care.
Quote:
Iranian leader: Wipe out Israel
Ahmadinejad quoted a remark from Iran's Ayatollah Khomeini, the founder of Iran's Islamic revolution, who said that Israel "must be wiped out from the map of the world."

The president then said: "And God willing, with the force of God behind it, we shall soon experience a world without the United States and Zionism," according to a quote published by IRNA.
CNN.com - Iranian leader: Wipe out Israel - Oct 27, 2005
Quote:
Wipe Israel 'off the map' Iranian says
Iran's conservative new president, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, said Wednesdaythat Israel must be "wiped off the map" and that attacks by Palestinians would destroy it, the ISNA press agency reported.
Wipe Israel Iranian says - International Herald Tribune
Quote:
On The Line: Iran Threatens Israel
At a conference in Tehran, Iranian president, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad declared that Israel, "must be wiped off the map." Countries that recognize the Jewish state, he said, will "burn in the fire of the Islamic nation's fury." On The Line: Iran Threatens Israel
Quote:
Edwards: 'Iran must know world won't back down'
Edwards continued, "To a large extent, the US abdicated its responsibility to the Europeans. This was a mistake. The Iranian president’s statements such as his description of the Holocaust as a myth and his goals to wipe Israel off the map indicate that Iran is serious about its threats."
The Raw Story | Edwards: 'Iran must know world won't back down'
There are those that refuse to believe that Ahmadinejad has said this. Here are the facts that should not be misinterpreted in order to suit an agenda.

Last edited by Jester : 07-10-2008 at 02:46 AM.
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  #59 (permalink)  
Old 07-10-2008, 08:37 AM
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All of this is based on varying interpretations of Persian, all of which carry some sort of agenda. Persian, like Arabic can have up to 7 different meanings of a word depending on context and exact pronunciation. It's very hard to translate into English.
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  #60 (permalink)  
Old 07-10-2008, 01:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
The proof is posted below. I have posted the links individually so that it facilitates the learning process.



What are you jabbering about? This comment makes the strawman on the Wizard of Oz look like an amateur.



If anyone is interested, here is what Ahmadinejad said about wiping out Israel. I like to deal with the facts, and I never rely on others to "school" me on world issues. The facts are out there, if you dare to care.



There are those that refuse to believe that Ahmadinejad has said this. Here are the facts that should not be misinterpreted in order to suit an agenda.
Go and find a translator, you'll soon learn how stupid you look believing that crap AD.
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"North Americans don't understand... that our country is not just Cuba; our country is also humanity"
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