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Political Parties and Ideologies Discuss all political parties and Ideologies here. Everyone is welcome to share their political beliefs here.

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  #11 (permalink)  
Old 07-15-2008, 03:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oregon Elephant View Post
And his nomination shows that the members are not the party. There are two parts, the members and the party. The party should be following it's members, but it has shown, with Bob Barr, that it is not.
But that, in itself, doesn't make the Party "so far right wing that even many right-wingers refuse to associate with it."
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  #12 (permalink)  
Old 07-15-2008, 11:04 PM
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Originally Posted by AHFN View Post
I'm a Social Libertarian. That means that, unlike the Libertarian party, I place personal freedom ahead of capital freedom. I essentially have a liberal view on social matters (+ gun rights) and a semi-conservative view on economic matters (fewer government programs, por favor). This essentially places me in a cross-fire.

As soon as you tell a liberal that you are libertarian, you are immediately placed on their **** list. Seriously. Four out of five times, that's what seems to happen. To a liberal, "libertarian" seems to translate as "evil, right-wing, baby-killing, gun-toting, whiskey-drinking redneck shooting at blacks and Mexicans while trying to usurp law and order." They also assume that all Libertarians agree with the Libertarian party, and so assume that I'm a far-right-wing nutcase who wants to do away with 90% of government regulation. I also seem to get called a Bush supporter by Liberals a lot as well. Let me tell ya', Bush is just as antithetical to Libertarianism as he is to Liberalism. More so, even. I've also been called a baby killer, for no apparent reason.

When you tell a Neo Conservative that you are a libertarian, he will immediately assume that you are on his side, again because most people equate libertarianism with the party. As soon as you reveal that you are anti-Iraq War, anti-wiretapping, anti-corporate tax breaks, anti-stimulus packages, pro-Social Security (with extensive reform), pro-gay marriage, are against the mixing of church and state, and do not believe that Islam is trying to take over the world, you are immediately **** listed by the Neo-Cons as well.

I seem to get along fine with pre-1970 conservatives, opinions differing in detail rather than in base. The problem with this is that Liberals seem to assume that pre-1970 conservative necessarily means racist. If that thought enters your head, please shut the fruck up a second and think first. If I'm supporting equal rights for all, does that mean I'll try to oppress someone based on race? Come now.

When I run across a Fiscal Libertarian, or Libertarian Party Libertarian, they immediately assume that I'm an ally in all respects. When I reveal that I think they're a bunch of nuts, I'm instantly crucified as a heretic. Quite annoying.

So really, it's tough being Libertarian, especially since 90% of people immediately stereotype you into groups which you do not agree with at all. I'm being fired on from three sides at all times. The Liberals are worst at it, but the Neo-Cons are bad too.

So please, before stereotyping me, try this:








Learn what the **** Libertarianism is about first!
I think you and I have a great deal in common actually. I've registered as a Democrat and identify as a Democrat but I much prefer the mindset of the classic conservatives. I like a blend between Bobby Kennedy and Barry Goldwater thanks.
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  #13 (permalink)  
Old 07-16-2008, 06:16 AM
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Originally Posted by Chan View Post
But that, in itself, doesn't make the Party "so far right wing that even many right-wingers refuse to associate with it."
That's true, I wouldn't say that it is so far right wing that many right wingers won't associate it, but I would say that it has moved further to the right, far enough that many libertarians have begun searching for a new home.
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  #14 (permalink)  
Old 07-17-2008, 03:09 PM
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Lets see.....where to begin.....

Quote:
Originally Posted by AHFN
When I run across a Fiscal Libertarian, or Libertarian Party Libertarian, they immediately assume that I'm an ally in all respects. When I reveal that I think they're a bunch of nuts, I'm instantly crucified as a heretic. Quite annoying.
First, what makes you think they 'are a bunch of nuts?'
Second, perhaps they would not try to crucify you if you wouldn't call them nuts. Just food for thought.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AHFN
So really, it's tough being Libertarian, especially since 90% of people immediately stereotype you into groups which you do not agree with at all. I'm being fired on from three sides at all times. The Liberals are worst at it, but the Neo-Cons are bad too.
Join the club.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oregon Elephant
No problem, I hope that more people can do this in every aspect, not just libertarianism, but liberals and conservatives and socialists and everyone else. I hate this classifing BS that goes on by extremists.
Agreed, but it happens within the LP as well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AHFN
The average person knows nothing of Libertarianism except for what he hears about the Libertarian Party, which is so far right wing that even many right-wingers refuse to associate with it. Thus we always get a bad name from everyone. Not just one side, but all sides.
How so? Most of the objections I get are accusations that we (the LP) are a bunch of anarchist, hell bent on burning down DC and planting weed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oregon Elephant
And his nomination shows that the members are not the party. There are two parts, the members and the party. The party should be following it's members, but it has shown, with Bob Barr, that it is not.
Sophistry. The delegates ARE the party. If you are an LP member and you failed to attend your state / national convention, you have no room to bitch.

Additionally, I have seen the transformation of Barr over the years. He did not 'flip-flop.' He had a genuine conversion.
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  #15 (permalink)  
Old 07-17-2008, 05:30 PM
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Originally Posted by BoneDaddy View Post
Sophistry. The delegates ARE the party. If you are an LP member and you failed to attend your state / national convention, you have no room to bitch.

Additionally, I have seen the transformation of Barr over the years. He did not 'flip-flop.' He had a genuine conversion.
I never said he flip floped or didn't have a genuine conversion.

But for the if "you failed to attend your state / national convention, you have no room to bitch" that is total BS. The national convention has room for how many people? The largest meeting room at the Sheraton in Denver (where the NC is taking place) only holds 3,700 people. Link.

And the state ones hold even less, not to mention the cost it takes to go there and stay for the 4 days. It is not physically (let alone financially or logistically) possible for all or even a fraction of the members to go.
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Old 07-18-2008, 09:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oregon Elephant View Post
I never said he flip floped or didn't have a genuine conversion.
Not addressing you directly per se, just the most common charge leveled against Barr.

Quote:
But for the if "you failed to attend your state / national convention, you have no room to bitch" that is total BS. The national convention has room for how many people? The largest meeting room at the Sheraton in Denver (where the NC is taking place) only holds 3,700 people.
There was more than enough room for you.

Quote:
And the state ones hold even less, not to mention the cost it takes to go there and stay for the 4 days. It is not physically (let alone financially or logistically) possible for all or even a fraction of the members to go.
Did you attend? Did you become a delegate? Are you a member of your state executive committee? I attend. I participate. If you don't....don't bitch.

The delegates ARE the party. Not the armchair generals and ideologues who refuse to provide their time, talent and treasure to the movement.
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Last edited by BoneDaddy : 07-18-2008 at 09:25 AM.
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  #17 (permalink)  
Old 08-04-2008, 01:50 PM
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Sounds to me like the Libertarian Party isn't representive of any libertarian. Everyone is at pains to disavow allegiance to it.
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  #18 (permalink)  
Old 08-04-2008, 02:16 PM
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I didn't disavow allegiance until they nominated Bob Barr, who believes the military shouldn't allow pagans to practice their religion on military posts and who authored the 1996 Defense of Marriage Act, which declared that states did not need to recognize legal same-sex marriages from other states.
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  #19 (permalink)  
Old 08-04-2008, 02:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BoneDaddy View Post
Did you attend? Did you become a delegate? Are you a member of your state executive committee? I attend. I participate. If you don't....don't bitch.

The delegates ARE the party. Not the armchair generals and ideologues who refuse to provide their time, talent and treasure to the movement.
As seeing as I'm not a member of the party, nor do I believe in their ideology, no I didn't attend.

But they do not provide enough room for everyone that wants to attend. 3,700 seats is not enough for everyone in the party. Unless you think that Libertarianism is that unpopular that it has less members than the KKK.
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  #20 (permalink)  
Old 08-08-2008, 12:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oregon Elephant View Post
As seeing as I'm not a member of the party, nor do I believe in their ideology, no I didn't attend.

But they do not provide enough room for everyone that wants to attend. 3,700 seats is not enough for everyone in the party. Unless you think that Libertarianism is that unpopular that it has less members than the KKK.
But how do you know they don't provide enough room for everyone that wants to attend? Were there more than 3,700 people that registered to attend the convention and, consequently, some of those people were turned away?

It isn't that libertarianism is unpopular. In fact, there are quite a lot of people who espouse libertarian ideals. It's that the Libertarian Party is not that popular because of people like you, the Democrats, the Republicans, and the media idiots who keep on telling them that only the Democrats and Republicans have a chance of winning or not voting for a Democrat or a Republican is to steal a vote from the Democrat or Republican or third parties aren't viable; it's that state laws make it much harder for parties other than Democrat and Republican to get on the ballot; it's that the media won't report other parties the way they report Democrats and Republicans. The system is intentionally rigged against other parties.
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A panda walks into a cafe. He orders a sandwich, eats it, then draws a gun and fires two shots in the air.

"Why?" asks the confused waiter, as the panda makes toward the exit. The panda produces a badly punctuated wildlife manual and tosses it over his shoulder.

"I'm a panda," he says at the door. "Look it up."

The waiter turns to the relevant entry and, sure enough, finds an explanation.

"Panda. Large black-and-white bear-like mammal, native to China. Eats, shoots and leaves."

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