Limiting the government is not turning back time.

I have a few specific cut backs on the federal level:

*85% military cut in spending.
*Remove all troops from forgein soil.
*End social security for everyone under 35. Continue paying for those who already dependent on it and let it die out.
*Change the tax system. No exemptions.
*Remove all federal firearm legislation, except a database of specific criminals barred from purchase.
*Eliminate the IRS after they finish collecting the last of their taxes.
*End subsidies or severely limit them.
*Remove anti-privacy legislation.
*Eliminate or completely revamp the FDA.


That is some of it.

When I say I went to limit the government, that is what I want to do. I want oppressive laws removed and the government reduced.

There are many many issues. A big problem is corruption. I really think the only way to fix the huge corruption is to throw out most and start fresh.

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May your paradise always be green, you liberties always be full, and may the ignorance of you enemies not drive you to be pro-nuke.

"We contend that for a nation to try to tax itself
into prosperity is like a man standing in a bucket and
trying to lift himself up by the handle."-Winston Churchill

That depends entirely on what you want acheived. Some of the rhetoric on here really makes me wonder, sometimes.

The percentages can be played with, but I'll agree it way out of hand.

Agreed. They don't want us there, anyway, and usually the reason for them being there is long vanished.

This one, I'd disagree on. It obviously needs a massive overhaul, but I do believe in a social contract.

Provisional agreement. Depends entirely on the changes you mean. I am for finally going after corporations and ending their free from obligation reign. And, simplification leaves less loopholes to exploit.

Have to pass on this one, due to lack of specific knowledge.

No. Bankrupting the country by disabling one of its main income arms is suicidal. Nobody like the IRS, but I don't think you realize what this would mean.

Which ones?

Specifically?

Are you insane? Again, I don't really think you want no standards or inspections for our nation's food supply. You don't think it's a good idea? You thinking that nobody would try to flood the markets with substandard, unclean food, or pills that kill? Do you have any idea how brutal this would be?

So, some of this we agree on, but things like public safety and whatnot are non-megotiables with me.

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The poor object to being governed badly, while the rich object to being governed at all. -- G. K. Chesterton

Well I would be eliminating the income tax and replacing it with something else. Preferably fairtax or similar, A VAT tax would work also. Or if I heard a better plan I am all for that too, I am open to suggestions. I would shift the responsibility to the FBI, I guess I should have mentioned that. If not I would limit the IRS and replace many of the workers. I am not talking about removing the government income, just destroying a bad agency.

Any and all "Art" subsidies. Tax exemptions of course. Any "Perverse" subsidies. "Corporate Welfare". I may have missed some.

Patriot act. Any legislation allowing warrant less searches.

Knowledge of the food "labels" is fine. The banning of many foods and medications is not. I also support legalization of the bad illegal drugs. The banning of alternative drugs and medications is not fine. If nothing else I would severely limit it.

__________________
May your paradise always be green, you liberties always be full, and may the ignorance of you enemies not drive you to be pro-nuke.

"We contend that for a nation to try to tax itself
into prosperity is like a man standing in a bucket and
trying to lift himself up by the handle."-Winston Churchill

*85% military cut in spending. Check, though I'd say closer to 65%
*Remove all troops from forgein soil. Mostly check. Not all troops, but 90% for sure.
*End social security for everyone under 35. Continue paying for those who already dependent on it and let it die out. Maybe.
*Change the tax system. No exemptions. Check.
*Remove all federal firearm legislation, except a database of specific criminals barred from purchase. Check.
*Eliminate the IRS after they finish collecting the last of their taxes. Mmmm, maybe-check.
*End subsidies or severely limit them. Check.
*Remove anti-privacy legislation. Check.
*Eliminate or completely revamp the FDA. Check.

Good to know we Libertarians do agree on some things, eh Joe?

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"When in the course of human events it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation... We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness...."
- The Declaration of Independence

Hehe, ya. I got my 85% figure by comparing our spending to the rest of the world. with an 85% cut we would still spend more than everyone else by quite a bit.

__________________
May your paradise always be green, you liberties always be full, and may the ignorance of you enemies not drive you to be pro-nuke.

"We contend that for a nation to try to tax itself
into prosperity is like a man standing in a bucket and
trying to lift himself up by the handle."-Winston Churchill

Clearly, you've gone insane. What you're advocating is giving the nod to rampant quackery and fraud.

Either that or you have an unbelievable amount of faith in people, to think it wouldn't happen.

I think I'm having a very difficult time understanding this crusade against standards in the public interest, joe. Widespread disease, poisonings, and epidemics, which are things the FDA, the CDC and the USDA are intended to prevent, are not things you can just glibly think "the market" can handle. If I didn't know better, I'd almost say you were okay with massive deaths just to "save" a buck, or in the name of freedom to sell pills that kill.

You wouldn't want to ban unclean food? Just what is it about public health that bothers you? Are you anti-sanitation and waste disposal, too?

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The poor object to being governed badly, while the rich object to being governed at all. -- G. K. Chesterton

Simple Individual choice > public interest.
The FDA bans way too much and prevents alternative medicine. I would say not get rid of it but severely limit.
It is not about saving money.

__________________
May your paradise always be green, you liberties always be full, and may the ignorance of you enemies not drive you to be pro-nuke.

"We contend that for a nation to try to tax itself
into prosperity is like a man standing in a bucket and
trying to lift himself up by the handle."-Winston Churchill

One wing of the party wishes to do just that. Of course they believe that the act of voting is a form of aggression as well. Don't get me going on these guys....my blood pressure has been pretty good lately.

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The law perverted! And the police powers of the state perverted along with it! The law, I say, not only turned from its proper purpose but made to follow an entirely contrary purpose! The law become the weapon of every kind of greed! Instead of checking crime, the law itself guilty of the evils it is supposed to punish! - Frederick Bastiat

There, my friend, I cannot follow.

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The poor object to being governed badly, while the rich object to being governed at all. -- G. K. Chesterton

Sure, and I'll grant that it's easy to tar the whole thing, based on the more expressive few. Just like when someone says they are a Christian, you have to follow up and determine which flavor, because the differences are huge.

On that note, I get a bit upset and defensive when I hear sweeping generalizations about government being evil. There's an enormous amount of things that our federal government enables that is unseen and unacknowledged. We're no longer a farming society, and food simply would not get to anyone with the speed, efficiency or variety it does in cities without regulations and standards, just for example.

The government is there to guarantee rights and liberties, to enforce penalties for infraction, to provide consistent guidelines for operation of the economy and society. Besides, government only enacts laws and regulations when something is out of hand, usually lobbied to do so by it's own people. Sure, you might feel miffed that you can't build a 7-11 on your land because of zoning restrictions, but nobody else can, either. Nothing is unconditional, and this stuff makes society run far smoother than it did before them, despite individuals feeling singled out.

This is why I claim that libertarianism is fundamentally selfish and self-centered, appearing not to care or acknowledge about society at large. I got mine, Jack, piss off. (It's notable that libertarian appeals largely to affluent white males.)

But, rather than parse specifics and argue over a million little points, a libertarian/individualistic philosophy is just opposite very core values that I have. I think there are some valuable ideas, and sure the government needs some paring down, but when everything is trusted to a completely unfettered market, and it becomes all about the individual, I can't agree.

I am skeptical by nature, and I am very hesitant to trust that people will function ethically on their own without standards and rules...anarchy. We have a hard enough time keeping people from wrecking each other as it is (Enron, Worldcom).

There's a reason why there are no working examples of a libertarian society of any significant scale. The occassional cluster of like-minded people might do fine in isolation, but turning 360 million Americans loose, all of whom feel they are more special and entitled than anyone else, would be sheer chaos. Everything enforced only at the barrel of a gun, eventually....Mad Max.

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The poor object to being governed badly, while the rich object to being governed at all. -- G. K. Chesterton