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Political Parties and Ideologies Discuss all political parties and Ideologies here. Everyone is welcome to share their political beliefs here.

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  #161 (permalink)  
Old 07-23-2008, 01:06 AM
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Originally Posted by Oregon Elephant View Post
Different founders had different views, so how can we look at "the intent of the founders" when different founders had different views and different intents?
This is perhaps one of the most reasoned statements yet. I mean just look at the differences between Adams and Jefferson.
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  #162 (permalink)  
Old 07-23-2008, 02:34 AM
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Originally Posted by Oregon Elephant View Post
Different founders had different views, so how can we look at "the intent of the founders" when different founders had different views and different intents?
Because their viewes were published and on this document / intent were in general agreement.

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Originally Posted by debateman
This is perhaps one of the most reasoned statements yet. I mean just look at the differences between Adams and Jefferson.
Who did not agree on everything, but agreed on many, died on the same day and were friend in the end. Yet, stating that the statement is 'reasoned' is not reasonable unless one views it from the debates themselves. You can read them at constitution.org, including Adams' promotion of the constitution.
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  #163 (permalink)  
Old 07-23-2008, 03:05 AM
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Originally Posted by BoneDaddy View Post
Because their viewes were published and on this document / intent were in general agreement.
Yes, but you can't group them together because they did not agree on many things, so you can't say "their intent" as if they all agreed.
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  #164 (permalink)  
Old 07-23-2008, 10:26 AM
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Originally Posted by Oregon Elephant View Post
Yes, but you can't group them together because they did not agree on many things, so you can't say "their intent" as if they all agreed.
Sugesting that the votes must be unanimous is inane. I can presume by your post that you have never served on a committe, in government or any body delegated to perform any given tasks.

By this logic we can state that when the legislature passes a law, as we cannot understand their intent because the vote was not unanimous, we can ignore the law.

Oh...and they agreed enough to pass and ratify not only the constitution, but the bill of rights. But nevermind because we can't understand their 'intent' on our freedom of speach because their votes were not unanimous. Way to go there....you just negated all rights to all citizens in one fell swoop.
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  #165 (permalink)  
Old 07-23-2008, 12:27 PM
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Originally Posted by BoneDaddy View Post
Why is it that you continue to ignore the 9th and 10th amendments? Is it 'inconvenient?'
Because the very idea that everything the Federal government has done since 1791 is "illegal" is ludicrous, moot, and is howling at the moon, pining for some imagined utopian state that is completely inadequate for a modern, vibrant, effective national government today. Going backwards and dismantling 200 years of governmental history is simply not practical, realistic, or likely.

If this is truly the position and aim of libertarianism, it's no wonder it consistently gets 1-2% of the vote.

This debate/thread can go on and on, and I won't.
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  #166 (permalink)  
Old 07-23-2008, 12:32 PM
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Amendment IX

The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.

Amendment X

The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.
Regardless of whether or not you think it's right, that is the supreme law of the land, and breaking it is illegal. Now, I don't think that there should be a new amendment passed every time the government wants a new agency, but I would be more at ease if there were at least one amendment defining the limitation of the government's powers in regards to regulation and all that other jazz.

'Cause right now, the Fed is breaking the law. No one seems to care much, but they are.
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  #167 (permalink)  
Old 07-23-2008, 01:26 PM
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Originally Posted by AHFN View Post
Regardless of whether or not you think it's right, that is the supreme law of the land, and breaking it is illegal. Now, I don't think that there should be a new amendment passed every time the government wants a new agency, but I would be more at ease if there were at least one amendment defining the limitation of the government's powers in regards to regulation and all that other jazz.

'Cause right now, the Fed is breaking the law. No one seems to care much, but they are.
And, that'd be fine. I think the whole dang thing probably needs a re-write and serious updating, anyway.

Our laws need to work for us, not against us. We can make our own laws say anything we need to: I don't share the opinion that the Constitution was decreed by God and completely immutable. Clarification, updating and revision is essential to a healthy body of law.

I happen to think things like the CDC, the FDA, USDA, and other agencies are quite important, and very much government's (society's) responsibility. If we get to the point where we are letting technicalities of our own Constitution hamstring what the people want their government to do, I think this is a bad thing. Government needs to be able to be responsive to the desires of the people, otherwise it's rather pointless.

But, I have always been perhaps more open to radical change than most people. If the 9th and 10 have been rendered pointless by established historical precident, then, perhaps it's time to revoke them, or clarify them.

Now, don't you take what I've said to illogial extremes and say that I want to pitch the Constitution out entirely.......
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  #168 (permalink)  
Old 07-23-2008, 01:46 PM
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The problem with that is, our government has ceased to serve us. Our legislature is corrupt, our president is an idiot, the rest of the executive branch has an agenda, and the Supreme Court is ruled by a bunch of cronies. I wouldn't trust idiots like those to re-write the menu at Micky D's, let alone the ruling document of the United States of America.
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  #169 (permalink)  
Old 07-23-2008, 02:01 PM
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Originally Posted by AHFN View Post
The problem with that is, our government has ceased to serve us. Our legislature is corrupt, our president is an idiot, the rest of the executive branch has an agenda, and the Supreme Court is ruled by a bunch of cronies. I wouldn't trust idiots like those to re-write the menu at Micky D's, let alone the ruling document of the United States of America.
Yeah. What to do is pretty easy to figure out. How to do it is entirely different.

And, considering we've allowed our education system to fall apart, we don't seem to be producing a whole lot of brilliant statesmen these days, either. Politics has been reduced to bumper-sticker philosophy, and I can't think of very many people I would entrust a Constitutional re-write to.
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  #170 (permalink)  
Old 07-23-2008, 02:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Skerlnik View Post
And, that'd be fine. I think the whole dang thing probably needs a re-write and serious updating, anyway.

Our laws need to work for us, not against us. We can make our own laws say anything we need to: I don't share the opinion that the Constitution was decreed by God and completely immutable. Clarification, updating and revision is essential to a healthy body of law.

I happen to think things like the CDC, the FDA, USDA, and other agencies are quite important, and very much government's (society's) responsibility. If we get to the point where we are letting technicalities of our own Constitution hamstring what the people want their government to do, I think this is a bad thing. Government needs to be able to be responsive to the desires of the people, otherwise it's rather pointless.

But, I have always been perhaps more open to radical change than most people. If the 9th and 10 have been rendered pointless by established historical precident, then, perhaps it's time to revoke them, or clarify them.

Now, don't you take what I've said to illogial extremes and say that I want to pitch the Constitution out entirely.......
Precedent of disobeying the law just means we should have more politicians in jail.
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