Welcome to Political Fever - The Political Debate Forums.

You are currently viewing our boards as a guest with limited access. By joining our free community you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. You can also take part in our Private Debates where you can test your skills against an opponent. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free so please, join our community today!

If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact contact us. After you Register the advertisements will disappear on the site!

Go Back   Political Fever - The Political Debate Forums > Political Issues > Other Issues

Other Issues Discuss other areas of moral and worldly importance that other forum areas do not cover.

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
  #11 (permalink)  
Old 07-02-2008, 05:08 PM
AHFN's Avatar
Evolution in action
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Userid: 715
Location: Noitacol
Age: 17
Posts: 210
Rep Power: 1
AHFN is on a distinguished road
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Donkey Jote View Post
How do we know what resources there are on mars?

Anyway, I see large scale planetary colonization not as a quest for more resources, but as a place to put an expanding homo sapiens population. It seems mars would be more suited to that.
The only thing Mars has in quantity that would be of use to an expanding colony is iron(III) oxide and water ice. We know this because several rovers have analyzed Martian rock, and orbiters have analyzed the Martian surface. But available resources are very important, because the cost of a space launch is exponentially related to the mass of the material you are launching. The more resources you can scrounge locally, the fewer you have to ship, and every gram of material you launch into orbit takes a kilogram or more of fuel.

Luna has zinc, titanium, nickel, iron, cobalt, manganese, silicon, and oxides and hydrides of all of the above, as well as other minerals and metals, plus a possibility of water ice. The only resource the Moon does not have, for sure, is nitrogen and nitrates. All of those resources that can be mined on the Moon are resources that won't have to be shipped to the Moon. Besides, the Moon is closer to Earth and is therefore cheaper and quicker to get to.
Reply With Quote
  #12 (permalink)  
Old 07-02-2008, 05:34 PM
leviathon435's Avatar
Congressman
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Userid: 147
Location: Nottingham, England
Age: 17
Posts: 7,118
Rep Power: 8
leviathon435 has a spectacular aura about
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chan View Post
If the United States colonizes it first, the United States can claim it as American territory - just like the Brits, Spanish, French, and Dutch did with most of Africa, Asia and the Americas.
What, because that worked out so well? No, imperialism is wrong, even if no-one lives in the land you want to take.
__________________
Trust me, I'm a socialist!

There's power in a factory,power in the land, power in the hand of the worker. But it all amounts to nothing if together we don't stand, there is power in a union.
The union forever defending our rights, down with the blackleg, workers unite. To our brothers and our sisters in many far off lands, there is power in a union.
Money speaks for money, the devil for his own. - Billy Bragg
Reply With Quote
  #13 (permalink)  
Old 07-02-2008, 05:36 PM
Donkey Jote's Avatar
Sinner
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Userid: 205
Location: Ohio
Age: 20
Posts: 2,913
Rep Power: 3
Donkey Jote has a spectacular aura about
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by AHFN View Post
The only thing Mars has in quantity that would be of use to an expanding colony is iron(III) oxide and water ice. We know this because several rovers have analyzed Martian rock, and orbiters have analyzed the Martian surface. But available resources are very important, because the cost of a space launch is exponentially related to the mass of the material you are launching. The more resources you can scrounge locally, the fewer you have to ship, and every gram of material you launch into orbit takes a kilogram or more of fuel.

Luna has zinc, titanium, nickel, iron, cobalt, manganese, silicon, and oxides and hydrides of all of the above, as well as other minerals and metals, plus a possibility of water ice. The only resource the Moon does not have, for sure, is nitrogen and nitrates. All of those resources that can be mined on the Moon are resources that won't have to be shipped to the Moon. Besides, the Moon is closer to Earth and is therefore cheaper and quicker to get to.
How many things have we landed on Mars?

How can we really be sure what is there?
__________________
"Have you no decency, sir? At long last, have you left no sense of decency?"
-Joseph Welch
Reply With Quote
  #14 (permalink)  
Old 07-02-2008, 05:44 PM
Oregon Elephant's Avatar
prrrrr.....
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Userid: 63
Age: 21
Posts: 7,751
Rep Power: 10
Oregon Elephant has a spectacular aura aboutOregon Elephant has a spectacular aura about
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by AHFN View Post
The only thing Mars has in quantity that would be of use to an expanding colony is iron(III) oxide and water ice. We know this because several rovers have analyzed Martian rock, and orbiters have analyzed the Martian surface. But available resources are very important, because the cost of a space launch is exponentially related to the mass of the material you are launching. The more resources you can scrounge locally, the fewer you have to ship, and every gram of material you launch into orbit takes a kilogram or more of fuel.

Luna has zinc, titanium, nickel, iron, cobalt, manganese, silicon, and oxides and hydrides of all of the above, as well as other minerals and metals, plus a possibility of water ice. The only resource the Moon does not have, for sure, is nitrogen and nitrates. All of those resources that can be mined on the Moon are resources that won't have to be shipped to the Moon. Besides, the Moon is closer to Earth and is therefore cheaper and quicker to get to.
We know that the moon doesn't have any water, in any form. Due to low mass and temp range. Any water that it did have would have been lost into out space (on the sunny side of the moon, any ice would melt, and much would disolve into water vapors, the low mass, which makes low gravity, would allow for all the water vapor to fly into space, so every day, the moon would lose some water vapor, until it had none left.

Transportation would not be a problem between planets. As seeing as we are talking sci-fi~ish, the obvious answer would be a space elevator on each planet. The only energy used is the energy to get out of the pull of the planet, so distance only effects time, not fuel.

I think that Venus would be the best option for colonizing. It is large enough to hold an atmoshpere, has Nitrogen, Carbon, Oxygen, and Hydrogen. Through several not very difficult chemical processes, it would be easy to grow vegitation there in well kept and maintained facilities. Over the course of decades, it would slowly change the enviroment to allow possible outside living.

I've gotta go, I'll get more into that in a moment.
__________________
Set your destination with your heart, get there with your mind.

"The wisest men follow their own direction." - Euripides
Reply With Quote
  #15 (permalink)  
Old 07-02-2008, 05:45 PM
AHFN's Avatar
Evolution in action
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Userid: 715
Location: Noitacol
Age: 17
Posts: 210
Rep Power: 1
AHFN is on a distinguished road
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Donkey Jote View Post
How many things have we landed on Mars?

How can we really be sure what is there?
Fourteen. Wikimedia Error

They've landed in pretty much all of Mars' major regions, and I don't recall them finding much of utilitarian value. Scientific value? Yes. Utilitarian? Not much.
Reply With Quote
  #16 (permalink)  
Old 07-02-2008, 05:48 PM
Donkey Jote's Avatar
Sinner
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Userid: 205
Location: Ohio
Age: 20
Posts: 2,913
Rep Power: 3
Donkey Jote has a spectacular aura about
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by AHFN View Post
Fourteen. Wikimedia Error

They've landed in pretty much all of Mars' major regions, and I don't recall them finding much of utilitarian value. Scientific value? Yes. Utilitarian? Not much.
No utilitarian value? They said that you could grow great asparagus in Martian soil. Now I know that comment was tongue in cheek, but if you are talking about permanent colonies (not just shipping resources two and fro) the ability to grow food is HUGE.

I'm no scientist, but I'm curious as to how they can know exactly what a planet holds by taking fourteen surface smears.
__________________
"Have you no decency, sir? At long last, have you left no sense of decency?"
-Joseph Welch
Reply With Quote
  #17 (permalink)  
Old 07-02-2008, 06:08 PM
Oregon Elephant's Avatar
prrrrr.....
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Userid: 63
Age: 21
Posts: 7,751
Rep Power: 10
Oregon Elephant has a spectacular aura aboutOregon Elephant has a spectacular aura about
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Donkey Jote View Post
No utilitarian value? They said that you could grow great asparagus in Martian soil. Now I know that comment was tongue in cheek, but if you are talking about permanent colonies (not just shipping resources two and fro) the ability to grow food is HUGE.

I'm no scientist, but I'm curious as to how they can know exactly what a planet holds by taking fourteen surface smears.
The soil is good for growing, the lack of water, though isn't.

And fourteen is a good amount. How many times did the bristish come to the "new" world before the colonists did?
__________________
Set your destination with your heart, get there with your mind.

"The wisest men follow their own direction." - Euripides
Reply With Quote
  #18 (permalink)  
Old 07-02-2008, 06:20 PM
Donkey Jote's Avatar
Sinner
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Userid: 205
Location: Ohio
Age: 20
Posts: 2,913
Rep Power: 3
Donkey Jote has a spectacular aura about
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oregon Elephant View Post
The soil is good for growing, the lack of water, though isn't.

And fourteen is a good amount. How many times did the bristish come to the "new" world before the colonists did?
Not really a legitimate comparison...
__________________
"Have you no decency, sir? At long last, have you left no sense of decency?"
-Joseph Welch
Reply With Quote
  #19 (permalink)  
Old 07-02-2008, 06:46 PM
Plato's Avatar
Congressman
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Userid: 705
Age: 46
Posts: 133
Rep Power: 1
Plato is on a distinguished road
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oregon Elephant View Post
We know that the moon doesn't have any water, in any form. Due to low mass and temp range. Any water that it did have would have been lost into out space (on the sunny side of the moon, any ice would melt, and much would disolve into water vapors, the low mass, which makes low gravity, would allow for all the water vapor to fly into space, so every day, the moon would lose some water vapor, until it had none left.

Transportation would not be a problem between planets. As seeing as we are talking sci-fi~ish, the obvious answer would be a space elevator on each planet. The only energy used is the energy to get out of the pull of the planet, so distance only effects time, not fuel.

I think that Venus would be the best option for colonizing. It is large enough to hold an atmoshpere, has Nitrogen, Carbon, Oxygen, and Hydrogen. Through several not very difficult chemical processes, it would be easy to grow vegitation there in well kept and maintained facilities. Over the course of decades, it would slowly change the enviroment to allow possible outside living.

I've gotta go, I'll get more into that in a moment.
Sorry, a space elevator can't opporate on Venus. A space elevator requires the rotation of the planet to keep it up (the slower the planet's rotation, the longer the cable would need to be), Venus rotates once every 243 Earth days, so the space elevator would have to be about 10 million km, or about 1/4 the distance between Earth and Venus when they are at their closest.
__________________
"The people have always some champion whom they set over them and nurse into greatness...This and no other is the root from which a tyrant springs; when he first appears he is a protector."


"We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark; the real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light."

--Plato
Reply With Quote
  #20 (permalink)  
Old 07-02-2008, 11:04 PM
hot dragon's Avatar
Citizen
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Userid: 591
Location: adelaide, australia
Posts: 61
Rep Power: 1
hot dragon is on a distinguished road
Default

developing an extraterrestrial colony for mining or other commercial interests is probably different politically to developing it for expansion of the population. a commercial enterprise would have specific backers, a specific purpuse and agenda, it could be temporary and mobile and probably not be much different to, say, an isolated oil rig in an inhospitable part of earth.

a colony for the purpose of expanding population is likely to be different. it would be expected to be larger, independent, fixed, support everyone from newborn babies up to retirement and beyond, be a fully fledged society, at least eventually. politically it would be very different to a commercial venture and likely require its independence and political identity fairly quickly.

also, a commercial enterprise can go anywhere the resources are and leave once the resources are depleted, so the moon, venus, mars, even asteroids are all fair game. a social colony is probably is restricted to mars. the moon lacks the gravity to support an atmosphere, venus is too hot. mars is the most comparable to earth and probably the easiest to develop into somewhere liveable.

beside the economics and politics (and the unanswerable question of technological capability) what are the ethics of terraforming mars ? we are trying to preserve diversity and natural areas on earth, is it ethical to alter a whole planet for our uses ?
Reply With Quote
Reply



Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On






     Top Political Sites  
All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:42 AM.
Political Fever 2007/2008
   Word Search   |   Family Friendly   |   AdSense Forum   |   Game Cheats   |   Coupon Codes   |   Spore Game   |   Xcode Forum   |   Political Forums   |   Internet Marketing   |   Social Networking    |   Sudoku   |   Mobile Marketing   |   Web Forms   |   Articles & News   |   Loans & Credit Repair   |   Online Coupon Codes   |   Loans   |   Sudoku Puzzles   |   Map Games   |   Spore Screenshots