I wasn't sure where to put this, so it gets stuck in the "other issues" forum, unless a moderator has insight as to where it should be. I won't mind it being moved if you think it should belong elsewhere as long as it doesn't disappear (until at least four people have been called communists, two people dickheads, and one person an asshat.)

This post operates on a few of assumptions:

1. The United States is a functioning democracy, or functioning democratic republic if you want to get technical.
2. US foreign policy is not very nice. That is to say, regardless of intention, it often has negative consequences for other parts of the world.
3. Americans aren't sh-tty people.

I'm interested in why the US has consistently bad foreign policy (with exceptions, naturally). I refuse to believe that Americans are inherently bad people, and I also believe that we have a somewhat representative government. What gives?

(Now would be a good time to state that I am focusing on the United States only because I am a citizen of the country and participate in its democracy. I believe a similar discussion could be held over any country with international influence. I believe that most powerful countries act pretty much the same on the international level.)

My basic theory is that Americans do not elect our foreign policy. Not only is it time consuming and immediately relevant to our lives, we do not really get much of a choice between Democrats and Republicans. While one side might be more likely to go to outright war, the basic "bad" policies are consistent from party to party, president to president.

So the criticism should be, Americans don't care about the rest of the world? Is that a legitimate criticism? In my opinion, no, it is not. I think that anywhere you go in the world, everybody votes based on domestic politics. Americans have the unfair position of being citizens of a powerful country. Blaming American voters for American foreign policy is not valid, in my theory, because every country would operate the same. Thus, somebody burning an American flag is a misplaced anger. The flag doesn't represent the government, it represents the nation. The nation isn't a bad nation, it just is self centered (not selfish) like every other nation.

What then, is the solution to bad foreign policy? It has to come from the outside, countries rejecting influence, not just from the US, but from any international power.

Thoughts?

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"Have you no decency, sir? At long last, have you left no sense of decency?"
-Joseph Welch

Great thread DJ!

I agree completely that the American people aren't 'bad' and that we do often have, at best, misguided foreign policy when you take into account our national myths like the ideas found in our founding documents.

However, I am of the opinion that US foreign policy since at least the time of the Spanish-American War has had nothing to do with 'the people' and everything to do with US financial and business interests.

Plain and simple, it's the all mighty dollar and 'we' go where it tells us to go.

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"Yes. That's correct. Making a statement that's 100% true can't be bigoted."

What's the odds i get called a communist first

For what it's worth i see one basic false premise. As with any logical argument a false premise necessitates that the conclusion will be false.

The false premise that i see is that the US is a representative government of some sort. It is not. That is the illusion of bourgoise democracy. An efficient capitalist society prevents representative government. It only becomes representative once the people have been adequately moulded to reflect the capitalist value system.

It gets people at a young age and infects them with values like survival of the fittest, the myth that society is a meritocracy and so you get what you deserve. The put out all sorts of values, regarding private property, supposed freedom of speech. These are not inherent human values, these are capitalist values. Inherent human values are equality of opportunity, the right to life, love thy neighbour and do unto others as you would have them do unto you. But these are conflicted with the values we learn. They are passed on by generation to generation, by media, by education systems, by parents and by the very make up of the society we inherit.

The effect of this is that we get not only political parties, but a political system that upholds the values of those who own the means of production. We get the choice of capitalist a or capitalist b.

And what does capitalism have to do with a neocolonial foreign policy?

Imperialism is the highest form of capitalism !

Neocolonialism allows the capitalists who effectively control (to maintain their interests and uphold their value system) government to branch into new markets. Imperialism then becomes capitalism between nations. Or rather rulers of nations. Not the politicians but the global economic order, the owners.

Simply, US hegemony allows for global dominance of markets, not for the ordinary American but the de facto rulers.

That is why US foriegn policy is what it is and why the masses are powerless to change it. The only people who can change it are a vanguard. A small committed group with the will to make a difference.

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Viva Fidel

If there ever was in the history of humanity an enemy who was truly universal, an enemy whose acts and moves trouble the entire world, threaten the entire world, attack the entire world in any way or another, that real and really universal enemy is precisely Yankee imperialism

They talk about the failure of socialism but where is the success of capitalism in Africa, Asia and Latin America?

Well you are one.
I'm not sure if you're saying that we don't have a representative government, or that we are brainwashed into voting for a capitalist system. If it is the previous, then I disagree. If it is the latter, then, well, it is a representative government, no?

Like it or not, the American like capitalism. If you want to call it brainwashing, so be it, but that is their choice and it should be respected.

I don't say that the US is a perfect democracy. However, there is some response from the government to the demands of the people. This is fact, and denying it is ideologically based rhetoric, not an honest analysis. Politicians like power, and if enough people want something, the easiest way to keep power is to give the people what they want. Isn't that the name of a kinks song, by the way, give the people what they want? Their live "Kinks to the bone" album is great.
Here you have your own fallacy... you are implying that the only empires are capitalist ones....

Now you're just using the buzzword Capitalism as the bogey for everything you dislike about the world.
I actually completely agree with you here. The actions of an empire, any empire, on an international level, do not generally benefit the citizenry of that empire. That is a related, but separate topic.

The "masses" aren't powerless to change it. They are not interested in changing it. A people votes based on domestic policy.

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"Have you no decency, sir? At long last, have you left no sense of decency?"
-Joseph Welch

Americans are often wrapped up in voting their pocketbook, far too much to care about foreign policy when they are voting. Considering this, foreign policy is left to be ran by the elected few who have competing ideas. When there is not a clarity of message and direction then you get our foreign policy where the enemy of our enemy is our friend and we are more interested on a good deal on bananas than creating a longlasting positive relationship.

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Indeed.

But I want to make it perfectly clear that I don't consider this an American problem, but a global reality. It becomes a problem when a country achieves influence. I think all powerful nations act the same on an international level, and this thread is about why it happens with democracies.

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"Have you no decency, sir? At long last, have you left no sense of decency?"
-Joseph Welch

I agree with Debateman. There is so much politics being flooded in front of the average American with 24/7 coverage, news papers' focus, and what nots, that they can't handle all the information. They retreat into their personal shell and only think about "what help's me" and votes that way. Plus there are so many broken promises by senetors and governers and presidents, that people can not keep up with it all and it easily gets dismissed.

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Set your destination with your heart, get there with your mind.

"The wisest men follow their own direction." - Euripides

I think that the US and other influential democracies are fully capable of creating a positive foreign policy. The problem is that we need to realize that elitism is not a problem. We need elite individuals to serve in a policy creating role instead of the elected officials. The elected officials would merely approve or decline without amending. This would help our process in so many ways.

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So a sort of... Philosopher King with Democratic check and balance?

Interesting. I think you'd have a lot of declining...

__________________
"Have you no decency, sir? At long last, have you left no sense of decency?"
-Joseph Welch

Well I think it's the most reasonable method. Allow those who have developed an expertise create the policy. There would be a great deal of resistance to such a method, but it would be the most responsible. We would finally be in a position of creating sound policy instead of letting politicians with political motivations set the tune. The judicial system is supposed to be above politics and I feel that if we took the politics out of policy we would be better off. Simply up or down votes.

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