Lives are always at stake. The ignorant will believe anything that sounds intelligent.

And I'll send you pics of people who weren't vaccinated who never got polio or other diseases. Probablity, my friend. I'm more willing to put my faith in nature than medicine.

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Non concupisces domum proximi tui; nec desiderabis uxorem eius, non servum, non ancillam, non bowem, non asinum, nec omnia quae illius sunt.

Herd immunity's important here. When large numbers of people get vaccines, one benefit is that if everyone around you has the vaccine, the chances of a non-vaccinated person or someone with a compromised immune system, even if he is vaccinated, getting the disease goes down. Vaccinations prevent the communication of diseases by taking away the "food" supply for the pathogen. The people who are vaccinated block transmission.

This is a good description of the effect:

"herd immunity [...] leads to the reduction of transmission of an infection in a population.
The term is sometimes used in a "qualitative" sense, i.e. it indicates the presence of sufficient immune individuals in a population (above a specified threshold) which leads to the disappearance of the infection."

If enough people in a population have the vaccine, then the pathogen disappears because it has nowhere to incubate and mutate. Over 95% of the total must be vaccinated for Herd Immunity take effect. There isn't much wiggle room before gaping holes start appearing in the defense grid. But let's start poking holes in this defensive wall. The more people who are allowed to opt OUT of the system for any old reason, regardless of legitimacy, the more opportunities the virus now has for entering a body that's not protected. It's no longer facing a giant wall of vaccinated people protecting a few people with compromised immune systems. It can now more easily incubate, replicate, and mutate.

Here's a graphic to help you understand the problem. (t) represents successive time periods and an unvaccinated population. The infection hits a target which is open, unprotected by the wall. It moves from that individual to other unprotected individuals, increasing exponentially. In a population with giant gaps or unvaccinated people, disease transmits quickly.



This is an image describing what happens when we introduce immune individuals into the situation. It interrupts, inhibits, and slows down the rate of infection and the spread of the disease. We can see that some of the individuals who are still vulnerable are protected in the line of transmission if it first hits someone who is immune. If that person had NOT been immune, it would have continued on the path infected another one who would have infected another three, each infected yet another three.



Disease transmission can be described mathematically, the number of infections cases and spreads are a function of the base of vulnerable individuals. This means that then that the availability of bodies without protection fuels the number of cases and the rate of transmission. The more people who are not vaccinated, the more people who will get sick in case of outbreak and the faster it will happen. This is called the "Mass Action Principle."

Now, a further problem from allowing wanton evasion of vaccinations is not only that it spreads it to those who are not vaccinated (for whatever reason (health, too young, w/e). It can also infect people who have the vaccine, but have compromised immune systems. There have been cases of people dying or getting sick because a large enough group of people around them were susceptible, so the disease bounced from multiple infected to the uninfected, overloading the immune system.

Furthermore, bodies act as incubators, as I explained earlier. These "holes" in the defense network give the disease time to mutate so it can then infect the vaccinated populations with a new strain. If you were vaccinated, the chances of that happening would go down tremendously, and if enough were vaccinated, the disease would disappear (as many have since mass vaccination). Only recently are new strains coming back...because tards aren't getting vaccinations. Measles is one example.

This is because in all sectors of a given population (not just the total), a type of critical point must be had wherein a large enough group of the population is vaccinated. For example, in order to achieve herd immunity disease eradication for Malaria 80-99% of any segment of the population must be immune. For Pertussis, it's 92-94%. For smallpox, it's 85%. Remember, this is in any given sample, not just the national level.

In fact, vaccinations can lead to problems if there isn't a high enough quantity of people who are vaccinated, as it can increase the disease burden among adults. This means that the vaccination can actually be harmful if you are not assured that the vast majority of people will get it. Thus the more people who let through the system, not only does it make the defense weaker, it increases the risk for specific groups. (For a source on this, see here: http://www.pitt.edu/~super1/lecture/lec1181/028.htm).


This is also an excellent article that describes the danger of half-assed vaccination programmes, with implications for what happens when you don't vaccinate enough people or allow people to avoid them. Read it. You'll learn something.

Vaccination policies: individual rights v community health

In 1993, there was a huge outbreak of Rubella in Greece because they didn't, unlike other countries, have an effective vaccination mandate and the number of people who were protected was low. Mind you, in the United States when it was applied, it reduced the cases of congenital rubella from 20,000 to 7. The article goes into some detail about Herd Immunity and why letting people opt out harms the community by decrease Herd Immunity.




The other people who are not vaccinated yet or for whatever reason (even if it's legitimate) is a threat itself, as it allows for disease outbreaks. It would be wrong if large numbers of people who opted out got people who had legitimate health reasons for avoiding the vaccine sick. Moreover, refer to the above. It acts as an incubation tool for the virus which can impact vaccinated, but weak immune systems if bombarded enough, and it can circumvent vaccines in some cases. Herd Immunity is in society's interest. You disagree. You are simply ignorant and thus wrong.

My argument is logical. That you don't comprehend the medical issue isn't my problem. If you're going to be an idiot yapping about statism when talking about phucking vaccinations that save lives, go away. I don't have time for you. And you have no natural rights. That's already been explained. I won't go into that again. Read my previous posts and learn from that.

No, because not all consequences are equal. This is a common mistake people make when trying to understand consequentialist utilitarian ethics. There's nothing in my post which suggests that people's lives are worth equal or less than cheaper gas and profits. Utilitarian reasoning isn't as simple as "lol all benefits are the same!" That's stupid. If we saved many more lives and there was no alternative, then yes, killing thousands would be prima faci justified. Refer to the concept of equal consideration for like interests. Someone losing his arm is a greater interest and a more severe harm than getting and not getting a candybar is, respectively.




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What's really ignorant is your blind faith in science.

No, they get sexually transmitted diseases by engaging in behaviors that Christianity teaches against. So shove your anti-religion crap back up your backside where it belongs!

And here I thought you actually believed in natural selection!

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A panda walks into a cafe. He orders a sandwich, eats it, then draws a gun and fires two shots in the air.

"Why?" asks the confused waiter, as the panda makes toward the exit. The panda produces a badly punctuated wildlife manual and tosses it over his shoulder.

"I'm a panda," he says at the door. "Look it up."

The waiter turns to the relevant entry and, sure enough, finds an explanation.

"Panda. Large black-and-white bear-like mammal, native to China. Eats, shoots and leaves."

Bathing (soap or no soap) is better than not bathing. You want proof, look at the average life expectancies of Europe during Roman times (when baths were popular) and during midevil times (when bathing was unpopular). The Romans lived a hell of a lot longer. And as for the chicken pox and parents using that to spread it to their kids, I agreed with that practice. It builds up the immune system and allows you to better fight off not only chicken pox, but other similar diseases better.

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Non concupisces domum proximi tui; nec desiderabis uxorem eius, non servum, non ancillam, non bowem, non asinum, nec omnia quae illius sunt.

Which would do nothing to refute my point of the danger of not getting the vaccines. That some people can avoid it is irrelevant (and the majority of the time, they only avoid it because the majority have the vaccine, and thus they are leeching off of a solid Herd Immunity in the first place like little parasites). If enough people did not get the vaccine, we would lose that Herd Immunity and eventually it could impact those who are also vaccinated (in the long run).

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I agree that bathing is better than not bathing. My objection is simply to all that anti-bacterial crap they keep adding to everything these days. I spent a month in Indonesia back in 2006 and stores were selling anti-bacterial underwear for young children!

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A panda walks into a cafe. He orders a sandwich, eats it, then draws a gun and fires two shots in the air.

"Why?" asks the confused waiter, as the panda makes toward the exit. The panda produces a badly punctuated wildlife manual and tosses it over his shoulder.

"I'm a panda," he says at the door. "Look it up."

The waiter turns to the relevant entry and, sure enough, finds an explanation.

"Panda. Large black-and-white bear-like mammal, native to China. Eats, shoots and leaves."

Life is dangerous! Life is also a terminal illness that is 100 percent fatal. All this talk about herd immunity is inconsistent with a world view that adheres to natural selection.

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A panda walks into a cafe. He orders a sandwich, eats it, then draws a gun and fires two shots in the air.

"Why?" asks the confused waiter, as the panda makes toward the exit. The panda produces a badly punctuated wildlife manual and tosses it over his shoulder.

"I'm a panda," he says at the door. "Look it up."

The waiter turns to the relevant entry and, sure enough, finds an explanation.

"Panda. Large black-and-white bear-like mammal, native to China. Eats, shoots and leaves."

Wrong, I did address it. I just addressed your retarded Hitler analogy first for the stupidity it was.

You're argument wasn't rational. It was merely an attempt to poison the well by making an emotional, yet fallacious comparison to Hitler when the situations weren't even remotely similar.

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Irrelevant. That people die eventually doesn't mean we shouldn't vaccinate and prevent them from dying early through horribly painful, debilitating diseases. Moreover, the truth of evolution has no bearing on the morality of an act. You are falling into the fallacious logic of appeals to nature. Natural Selection is not a moral theory, and what is true and natural is not synonymous with ethical.

I trust you understand this, thus I needn't explain something so elementary to you again.

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Because most people have the vaccine in a group most won't get it? What do you think the polio virus goes toward a group of people and goes, "Oh, eight out of ten have been vaccinated, I guess I can't infect any of them." No, if your not vaccinated you have as much a chance to get it as anyone not vaccinated. This "Herd Immunity" thing makes no sense. Granted those who have been vaccinated can not get infected, but that doesn't mean that for a short time they can have it and spread it. It doesn't take much to spread a virus. Oh, and the Flu shots we keep giving out has only made "flu shot" resistant forms, so if every one was vaccinated it could lead to a new disease, unknown for now that would kill all of us who never learned to fight off the deadlier diseases.

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Non concupisces domum proximi tui; nec desiderabis uxorem eius, non servum, non ancillam, non bowem, non asinum, nec omnia quae illius sunt.