Some problems with mandatory vaccinations - Page 4 - Political Fever

Skerlnik · #31 (**permalink**) 06-24-2008, 06:53 PM

So, now it's a "prove it!"-fest?

Chan · #32 (**permalink**) 06-24-2008, 06:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skerlnik

So, now it's a "prove it!"-fest?

Not at all. But if someone is making a claim then someone else is free to ask for proof.

Skerlnik · #33 (**permalink**) 06-24-2008, 07:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chan

Not at all. But if someone is making a claim then someone else is free to ask for proof.

I agree, but y'all appear to have stalemated.

Lumara · #34 (**permalink**) 06-24-2008, 07:31 PM

I was out for a good part of the day and just logged back in. And I want to say for the record that whenever somebody says something to the effect that if another poster doesn't provide info within a certain amount of time that means the first poster is automatically correct is hogwash. There is life outside forums you know...

Before my grandson had his first baby shots I spent hours every day for a good part of the week coming up with good sources about the problems vaccines have caused in some people. I didn't save that info and am not about to spend hours on this project again, however here a few more sources:

Quote:

FDA Notes Baby Vaccine Bowel Problems
FDA Notes Baby Vaccine Bowel Problems
Serious Bowel Problems Reported in 28 U.S. Babies After Getting RotaTeq Vaccine
By Miranda Hitti
WebMD Health News
Reviewed by Louise Chang, MD

Feb. 13, 2007 -- The FDA today announced that 28 U.S. babies reportedly developed a potentially deadly bowel problem after getting the RotaTeq vaccine.

The babies developed intussusception, a serious and potentially life-threatening condition in which the intestine gets blocked or twisted.

Sixteen of the 28 babies required hospitalization and surgery. The other 12 needed enemas to reduce the intussusception. None died.

RotaTeq targets rotavirus, a leading cause of kids' diarrhea. The vaccine, approved by the FDA last year, is on the CDC's 2007 recommended child immunization schedule. It's given in three doses when babies are 2 to 6 months old.

It's not known whether RotaTeq caused the babies' intussusception. The number of reported cases is in line with expectations, says the FDA.

However, a different rotavirus vaccine, called RotaShield, was withdrawn from the market in 1999 after a rise in intussusception was noted after its use.

Quote:

Michelle Malkin MMR VACCINE PROBLEMS IN BRAZIL
MMR VACCINE PROBLEMS IN BRAZIL
By Michelle Malkin • August 28, 2004 05:01 AM

Lawrence Altman of the New York Times reports that Brazilian health officials have stopped using Chiron’s vaccine against measles, mumps and rubella after “an unexpectedly high number of children who received it experienced serious allergic reactions in an immunization program last week. The reactions included rashes and anaphylactic shock, a potentially fatal allergic condition.” At least 125 children experienced the reactions.

[i]n the case of vaccines, there is another problem, the shifting of the ratio of number of cases of the given disease to the complications caused by the vaccine. This process can be called the cross-over point and can be illustrated as follows. Consider that a highly effective vaccine becomes available and as a result, with the passage oftime, there is a progressive decrease in the incidence of the disease and, thus, in the mortality and other complications associated with the disease. However, all things being equal, the percent of adverse events (complications) associated with the vaccine remains constant.

A point will be reached, the cross over point, where the complication rate of the vaccine for individual patients will be higher than the adverse effects of the disease. At this point, for individuals, the wise thing might be to refuse the vaccine.

The autism-vaccine connection:
K.N.O.W. Vaccines - The Autism – Vaccine Connection

Quote:

Feds admit vaccine
'aggravated' autism
Critics: Ruling major concession
after years of government denials
Posted: February 28, 2008

© 2008 WorldNetDaily

David Kirby

The federal government continues to deny a link between vaccines and autism, but the U.S. Court of Federal Claims has ruled in favor of a child alleged to have regressed into autism as a result of vaccinations.

Several of the vaccinations included the controversial mercury-based preservative thimerosal, points out the National Autism Association, which sees the ruling as confirmation of the claims of many parents.

"This case echoes the stories of thousands of children across the country," said NAA President Wendy Fournier. "With almost 5,000 similar cases pending in vaccine court, we are confident that this is just the first of many that will confirm what we have believed for so long – vaccines can and do cause children to regress into autism."

Fournier called on the Centers for Disease Control "to acknowledge that the current vaccine schedule is not safe for every child and as with the administration of any medicine, individual risks and susceptibilities must be considered for each patient."

The key words contained in the concession, he says, are "aggravated" and "manifested."

"Without the aggravation of the vaccines, it is uncertain that the manifestation would have occurred at all," Kirby argues.

"When a kid with peanut allergy eats a peanut and dies, we don't say 'his underlying metabolic condition was significantly aggravated to the extent of manifesting as an anaphylactic shock with features of death,'" he continues. "No, we say the peanut killed the poor boy. Remove the peanut from the equation, and he would still be with us today."

Quote:

The Vaccine-Autism Connection
The Vaccine-Autism Connection

Although a vaccine/autism connection has been dismissed repeatedly in the current media, scientific studies that are based on biological processes show a significant link. CDC epidemiological studies also show a strong link of thimerosal to ADD, Learning Disabilities, Speech Delay and Autism (see Geier footage). These studies may not have received high attention in the public as of yet, but the information explaining what health professionals and government and otherwise employed scientists have discovered is in this section.

MMR Vaccine and Autism
MMR Vaccine and Autism

That's enough for now.

Skerlnik · #35 (**permalink**) 06-24-2008, 07:35 PM

Yeah, I got to the baby-bowel info and just stopped.

How'd you like to be the poor bastard who collected data for THAT study...?

Technocratic_Utilitarian · #36 (**permalink**) 06-24-2008, 07:50 PM

I never said what you said was hogwash if you can't provide the information. I did say there's no reason to take it seriously. Medical studies indicate that it's a myth. Refer to my source.

The majority of sources which claim it actually does that are little more than fronts for alternative medicine and quackery.

I will get to the studies which show no connection between Autism and vaccines. That too is a myth that just won't die.

Technocratic_Utilitarian · #37 (**permalink**) 06-24-2008, 07:53 PM

Quote:

Since I'm not saying that it's true or false, I don't have the burden of proof. Since you are making a specific claim, i.e. that it's false, you have the burden of proof. Lumara and those making the specific claim that it's true also have the burden of proof regarding their allegation.

You don't have any burden of proof. The people saying it's true do (e.g. Lumara). I have no burden of proof. I am not making the positive claim. The skeptic who doesn't believe the claim need not provide evidence it doesn't exist or is not true. I cannot prove a negative, and I need not "prove" that it's not happening anywhere any more than I need prove that God doesn't exist to dismiss it sans evidence. I am saying there's no reason, scientifically, to believe there is a connection between vaccines to Autism and immunosuppression. I have actually provided resources indicating it's a myth, so I have done my job already. I will now provide information that thoroughly refutes the equal myth that Autism is caused by vaccines.

Technocratic_Utilitarian · #38 (**permalink**) 06-24-2008, 09:01 PM

Here are studies which indicate there is no known connection between Autism and vaccination.

1. MMR vaccine does not cause autism - British study | Reuters

(This is a British study which shows no causal connection between Autism and MMR vaccination).

2. Science/AAAS | Science Magazine: Sign In

It requires subscription, but it describes a study in Denmark which indicates also there is no connection between vaccines and Autism. They did a study of the removal of the active ingredient anti-vaccination special interests claimed was the problem, yet it did not in fact decrease the rate of Autism. In fact, Autism increased during the period wherein it was taken out.

You will find reference to this study here as well, as well as a quote from it:

Bad Astronomy Blog Vaccines do not cause autism!

Quote:

Now the first big epidemiological studies weigh in. One comes from Denmark, which eliminated thimerosal from childhood vaccines in 1992. A team led by Kreesten Madsen of the Danish Epidemiology Science Centre in Aarhus reasoned that if thimerosal were a major cause of autism, incidence of new cases should drop once it was removed. In the September issue of the journal Pediatrics, they report that, instead of declining, the incidence continued to skyrocket after 1992.

Here is a chart provided by the researchers which indicates that thimerosal does not cause or correlate with Autism. It clearly shows a continued trend upwards after Thimersoal is removed. There are plenty of reasons why it may SEEM as if Autism is caused by vaccines, but they are ignored.

1. Vaccines are often given when children are young, and Autism is a developmental disorder that is diagnosed somewhat after that. Therefore, we have happenstance association.

2. Autism is not really on the rise because more people are getting it, but rather we are better at detecting it and we have reclassified it from what it used to be. Therefore, we have an influx of patients who wouldn't have classified as Autistic or been diagnosed before.

Note* on the thread regarding herd immunity, you laughed when I mentioned measles, as if it's not serious. Well, wrong. Measles can kill you. So let's stop pretending it's not serious.

3. Here is another excellent resource on Quackwatch.com, revealing the quackery of alternative medicine as well as anti-vaccination beliefs. It also goes into a lengthy explanation of the lack of evidence for Autism being associated with vaccines, and especially mercury.

Misconceptions about Immunization

I quote for your convenience:

Quote:

Some parents of children with autism believe that there is a link between measles, mumps, rubella (MMR) vaccine and autism. However, there is no sensible reason to believe that any vaccine can cause autism or any kind of behavioral disorder. Typically, symptoms of autism are first noted by parents as their child begins to have difficulty with delays in speaking after age one. MMR vaccine is first given to children at 12-15 months of age. Since this is also an age when autism commonly becomes apparent, it is not surprising that autism follows MMR immunization in some cases. However, by far the most logical explanation is coincidence, not cause-and-effect.

[...]

In January 1990, an Institute of Medicine committee examining possible health effects associated with DPT vaccine concluded that there was no evidence to indicate a causal relation between DPT vaccine or the pertussis component of DPT vaccine and autism [17]. Also, data obtained from CDC's Monitoring System for Adverse Events Following Immunization (MASAEFI) system, showed no reports of autism occurring within 28 days of DPT immunization from 1978-1990, a period in which approximately 80.1 million doses of DPT vaccine were administered in the United States. From January 1990 through February 1998, only 15 cases of autism behavior disorder after immunization were reported to the Vaccine Adverse Events Reporting System (VAERS). Because of the small number of reports over an 8-year period, the cases reported are likely to represent unrelated chance occurrences that happened around the time of vaccination. The most frequent vaccines cited in the reports were diphtheria, tetanus, pertussis (DPT), oral polio vaccine (OPV), and MMR. Other vaccines reported as having a possible association with autism were Haemophilus influenzae type B and Hepatitis B.

In 2000, the American Academy of Pediatrics convened a multidisciplinary panel of experts ro review what is known about the development, epidemiology, and genetics of ASD and the hypothesized associations with IBD, measles, and MMR vaccine. The panel concluded:

Although the possible association with MMR vaccine has received much public and political attention and there are many who have derived their own conclusions based on personal experiences, the available evidence does not support the hypothesis that MMR vaccine causes autism or associated disorders or IBD. Separate administration of measles, mumps, and rubella vaccines to children provides no benefit over administration of the combination MMR vaccine and would result in delayed or missed immunizations. Pediatricians need to work with families to ensure that children are protected early in the second year of life from these preventable diseases. Continued scientific efforts need to be directed to the identification of the causes of ASD [18].

[...]

Recently, the National Childhood Encephalopathy Study (NCES) was examined to see if there was any link between measles vaccine and neurological events. Researchers in England found no indication that measles vaccine contributes to the development of educational and behavioral deficits or other possible signs of long-term neurological damage [27].

Harms are also incredibly rare. For example:

[quoteMost people have no adverse reaction after receiving a MMR vaccination. About 5%-15% of vaccines may develop a fever 5-12 days after MMR vaccination and 5% may develop a rash. Central nervous system conditions, including encephalitis and encephalopathy, have been reported with a frequency of less than one per million doses administered.[/quote]

4. This is a study from the Lancet.
Autism and measles, mumps, and rubella vaccine: no...[Lancet. 1999] - PubMed Result

It also indicates there is no causal link between the MMR vaccine and Autism.

5. Here is an article from Medscape Medical News: Log In Problems

Nope, no link between Autism and vaccination.

This debate was stillborn. It never existed. So please, please stop spreading the rumor that vaccines cause Autism. No credible science indicates that's true, and it just causes parents to harm their kids, kill them, or put them at risk of both of the aforementioned.

Chan · #39 (**permalink**) 06-24-2008, 09:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Technocratic_Utilitarian

You don't have any burden of proof. The people saying it's true do (e.g. Lumara). I have no burden of proof. I am not making the positive claim. The skeptic who doesn't believe the claim need not provide evidence it doesn't exist or is not true. I cannot prove a negative, and I need not "prove" that it's not happening anywhere any more than I need prove that God doesn't exist to dismiss it sans evidence. I am saying there's no reason, scientifically, to believe there is a connection between vaccines to Autism and immunosuppression. I have actually provided resources indicating it's a myth, so I have done my job already. I will now provide information that thoroughly refutes the equal myth that Autism is caused by vaccines.

The notion that the skeptic doesn't have to prove his POSITIVE CLAIM wrong (the affirmation that the other person's view is wrong) is nonsense.

As for your statement "there is no reason, scientifically, to believe" suggests that you are appealing to science as an ultimate authority. Appeals to authority were something that the great men during the Age of Reason (the Enlightenment) rejected in favor of rationalism, logic, reason...

Technocratic_Utilitarian · #40 (**permalink**) 06-24-2008, 10:39 PM

Meanwhile, kids get sick and die because of these myths. It's really disgraceful.

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