(hands Jarlaxle a map of southern Texas......)

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Unfortunately, the Founders did not address the possibility of this nation becoming populated with obnoxious twits.

Dude, Mexico's population is estimated at about 105 million. Only the majority of the 20 plus million illegals are estimated to be from Mexico. That 10% figure should be a little higher though.

Wherever there is a border fence it should be electrified. It sends a message to the illegal Mexican scabs trying to break in, doesn't it?

Dude, the problem I'm concerned with is stopping the illegal Mexican invasion. If you're one of the activists with an agenda then you're going to worry about a lot of other sh!t. To stop the illegal Mexican invasion all we have to do is to stop the scumbag employers from hiring illegal Mexican scabs. That would stop the illegal Mexican invasion cold. The function of the fence is to stop or slow down all of the illegals that don't come here to work. You know, the drug dealers, smugglers, criminals, TERRORISTS.

That's all we should expect from the fence, to slow down the hordes of illegal mostly Mexican scabs that are breaking in until the BP can get to them. Some would get through but not many if the fence is built right. That is a double layered tight woven mesh high fence, reinforced, with a 2 lane highway for the BP between layers, and of course cameras and sensors.

The vast majority of illegals that illegal cross our border, cross the SOUTHERN border. The southern border is the squeakly wheel.

Yep. They are also from a first world country. They're educated, speak English, have almost the same culture, assimilate seamlessly, and to put it bluntly are INFINITELY a more desirable class of illegals than the illegal Mexican poverty rejects who are uneducated, don't speak English, don't assimilate, and who are from a 3rd world culture much different than American culture. Does that cover it for you?

Quote of the year, right there.

So you're a bigot, if not an outright racist. Thanks for sharing.

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"Yes. That's correct. Making a statement that's 100% true can't be bigoted."

You can quote me if you want to. I'd like to see what I said make the rounds. What I said is nothing but the truth. If you can't see that then you're just ignorant, aren't you? But then you have your own pro illegal agenda. You can take your bigot crap and stick it too. Do you actually think that anyone really cares anymore if a pro illegal open border activist with an agenda calls them a bigot?

Yeah - I have a friend who lives alone - with her two dobermans and her rifle. When folks come to the door she points to her porch which has bags (sandwich, fruit and 5$, next to a gallon of water), using the rifle, and telss them to just take what they need. She has never had a problem, other than trash - and they usually pack it.

Somehow that sums it all up.

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Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it whether it exists or not, diagnosing it incorrectly, and applying the wrong remedy.
Ernest Benn

A Tolerance of Violence On the Border
A Tolerance of Violence On the Border
June 20, 2005 By Rodolfo F. Acuna


Rodolfo F. Acuna's ZSpace Page

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In trying to make sense as to why most Americans and even a large number of Latinos are so complacent about so-called minutemen running amok on the border, searching for undocumented people, I recently re-read Herbert Marcuse's 1965 essay on "Repressive Tolerance."

Marcuse wrote that "[t]olerance is an end in itself"and necessary for the preservation of the status quo and the strengthening of "the tyranny of the majority..." When tolerance is turned into a passive state it promotes laissez-fairez, entrenching the established attitudes and ideas of the right wing. The result is that we passively tolerate ideas and actions that are damaging to man and nature.

The University of California professor argued that there was a difference between true and false tolerance and it was an abuse of tolerance to ignore unjust attitudes and ideas because the truth may antagonize sympathizers.

According to Marcuse, a liberating tolerance was intolerance toward unjust ideas and movements. Marcuse was later to posit that it was the intolerance of students on campuses that removed Dow Chemical and the recruiters off the university campuses.

Marcuse distinguishes the Right from the Left and movements that help people versus those that keep them in their place. These movements are difficult to distinguish because of the historical amnesia of Americans. They believe that the Right and the Left have contributed equally to social legislation that protects the average citizen.

The truth be told, as a historian, I cannot remember a single piece of progressive social legislation sponsored by right wing senators or representatives. Indeed, they opposed the end of slavery, the protection of children's rights, social security, and civil and human rights, for starters.

Society's lack of historical awareness of these facts and the reluctance of liberals to call the Trent Lotts of this world liars perpetuates this false consciousness.

In respect to undocumented workers and immigrants this repressive tolerance has allowed racist nativist to blur reason and sanction border violence. It has allowed the historically illiterate like California Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger to praise Arizona vigilantes. "They've done a terrific job. And they have cut down the crossing of illegal immigrants by a huge percentage." We are conditioned to tolerate this undemocratic behavior and forget that in another time these vigilantes would be wearing white hoods.

Border violence is not an aberration and is as American as apple pie. At least, 597 Mexicans were lynched near or on the border. The majority were not bandits; they were lynched because they were Mexicans. Witness that there has been no similar history on the Canadian border. Why?

What will be the cost of tolerating these vigilantes?

In the summer of 1976, George Hannigan, a Douglas, Arizona, rancher and Dairy Queen owner, and his two sons, Patrick, 22, and Thomas, 17, kidnaped three undocumented workers looking for work. They "stripped, stabbed, burned [them] with hot pokers and dragged [them] across the desert." The Hannigans held a mock hanging for one of the Mexicans and shot another with buckshot. Judge Anthony Deddens, a friend of the Hannigans, refused to issue arrest warrants. Finally, an all-white jury acquitted the Hannigans. Activists on both sides of the border protested the verdict and pressured U.S. Attorney General Griffin Bell to indict them. A federal grand jury, in 1979 indicted the Hannigans for violating the Hobbs Act. Interference in interstate commerce. After deadlocks and s retrial a jury found the Hannigans guilty.

Since the Hannigan case, the hate groups have expanded. Historically, extremist groups have preyed on the fears and xenophobia of the American majority. Klansman David Duke organized "border patrols in the late 1970's." In the early 1980s Louis Beam and his Texas Knights harassed an immigrant Vietnamese fishermen in Texas.
During the 1980s, these hate groups grew as a product of the Internet where pornography and hate became profitable enterprises.

The idea of sending organized para-military groups to the border remained a right wing affair. The cry of "Close our Borders!"was the creation of white supremacist groups that are integrated in the ranks of the so-called "Minutemen" and spearhead their activities.

The agenda of many of these self described patriots goes well beyond "the protection of the border, however. The ADL reports that Glenn Spencer of Voices of Citizens Together and the American Patrol has "departed sharply from that of legitimate immigration reform groups." Much Spencer's rhetoric and writing "did not target immigration so much as he targeted Hispanics, particularly those of Mexican origin, regardless of whether they were immigrants or not." The Anti-Defamation League ADL cites a 1996 letter to the Los Angles Times in which he wrote "the Mexican culture is based on deceit."

Spencer's pal Roger Barnett, a rancher from Cochise Country, Arizona, attracted national attention by running around with pistols and assault rifles capturing undocumented brown people and holding them against their will.

Meanwhile, other kooks like Jack Foote, based in Arlington, Texas, have been inspired by Roger Barnett. He formed Ranch Rescue, like the other hate groups, has a Web Site, spreading fear and collecting money.

In March 2003 two of Ranch Rescue's "Minutemen" were arrested for allegedly detaining two Salvadorans and pistol whipping one of them.

On July 23, 2003, Claudine LoMonaco of the Tucson Citizen reported that "from the start of the fiscal year in October 2002 through Sunday, as many as 171 people have died in Arizona -- 43 percent more than the official Border Patrol figure of 119."

Where is this history of tolerance going end? The Anti-Defamation League (ADL) reports that in October 2002, New Jersey white supremacist radio talk show host Hal Turner told listeners to "kill every single one of these invaders."

The violence is not an aberration. It is not going to go away. It is directed at Mexicans and by extension anyone who looks like them.

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Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it whether it exists or not, diagnosing it incorrectly, and applying the wrong remedy.
Ernest Benn

We don't only allow it - we encourage it. Hell, we give em govt contracts by the billions!

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Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it whether it exists or not, diagnosing it incorrectly, and applying the wrong remedy.
Ernest Benn

pj - there is no fence that can't be breached if someone wants too badly enough - and you're talking serious billion in maintenance and patrol costs.

__________________
Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it whether it exists or not, diagnosing it incorrectly, and applying the wrong remedy.
Ernest Benn

I agree. Repeating enforcement does not solve the problem - nor even address it. What about the fact that here in AZ a large portion of the border is not american - it belongs to either the Tohono O'odham or the Yaqui. In fact, the national border cuts right through the Yaqui nation. Should we offer them a new treaty? Both tribes are going through hell trying to foot the bill, but neither wants to give up sovereignty.

Border areas depend on cross border trade. Putting anglo town out of business, and sending the population north is not going to make the border safer. And the border patrol could use a lot more that double their presence.

How many americans should be jailed in this endevor? One issue is citizens with hispanic surnames and accents - how do you prove you're a citizen? We've had a few american kids deported accidentally - their families were pretty pissed.

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Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it whether it exists or not, diagnosing it incorrectly, and applying the wrong remedy.
Ernest Benn

Yes, CLEARLY I have a 'pro-illegal agenda'.

Where exactly have I said anything to that effect?

You continue to advocate for a fence that I and others have shown will not work. You continue to not answer legitimate questions about that fence and its effects. And you continue to ignore the fact that 'mexicans' aren't the only ones entering this country illegally.

But, as you've said, you're only concerned about stopping Mexicans from taking your job.

I've stated previously that I support several different approaches to working on this problem, all of which, if done genuinely and completely by our admitedly retarded government will have much greater effect than any fence, no matter how well built. These include but are not limited to: fixing the laws on the books to make them more effective, enforcing those laws completely and fairly, some form of national ID that will be much more difficult to counterfeit than current forms of ID (my inner libertarian hates me right now), quadrupling the capacity and personel of Border patrol (north and south), harsh sanctions for employers who knowingly hire illegals, revoking permits for repeat offenders, working with the Mexican government to improve conditions within Mexico (as well as Central America), working with Mexican police to reduce drug smuggling and weapons smuggling, sending known criminals in this country illegally to prison regardless of the left-wing fall out from groups like La Rasa etc., forcing lawmakers to GO to the border region and see the conditions there for themselves, stopping vigilante groups like the Minutemen. There's a few for starters. I don't claim that these will 'solve' the problem, but all of them would be more effective than a fence, and far less costly.

Admittedly, any or all of these are likely to have negative social or economic consequences just like your fence, but these are all things that have been tried in various forms and have been successful in the past (here or elsewhere).

Now let's look at your 'fear' of mexicans.

You've said you are ONLY concerned with stopping Mexicans from entering this country illegally. Therefore, you've got no problem whatsoever with people from ANY other country entering this country illegally, right?

Check this out:

According to studies done by the Pew Hispanic Center and the Government Accountability Office in 2006
Wikimedia Error
Wikimedia Error

Country of Origin of all illegal immigrants
Mexico 57%
Central America (and to a lesser extent, South America) 24%
Asia 9%
Europe and Canada 6%
Other 4%

Assuming that those stats are even remotely accurate, you are ONLY concerned with stopping 57% of the problem. All those others, whether they come from Guatemala or Iran, Honduras or Saudi Arabia are just fine with you, yes?

And you call me ignorant.

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"Yes. That's correct. Making a statement that's 100% true can't be bigoted."