Finny seems to have provided proof to correct the original post in this thread. Thanks for the legitimate history lesson.

They are heroes in the same way that the Confederates who made Picket's Charge are heroes.

What Lee told Jefferson fits in quite well with the fundamental conflict in the Confederacy between the two of them. Lee wanted to destroy the Union army in the field, whereas Davis advocated a strong defensive posture. So the attack on Gettysburg was advertised by Lee as a small raid to throw the federals onto the defensive, because Davis would not have gone along with it had it been otherwise.

I have read multiple books on this subject, I have no idea where I can find any internet resources to prove it. Undoubtedly you will simply write me off as a liar or something, which will then only prove to me that further debate with you on this subject is useless.


Sigh....

Excuse me, I meant to ask if he was commanding the Army of Northern Virginia. I put forward the idea that the Army of Northern Virginia no longer had any capacity for offensive action, and even this little raid by Early doesn't seem to be any sort of strategic assault, more of a tactical raid.

According to the figures I've seen, it was around 25,000 on both sides.
And even so, 2,000 either way is hardly a huge thing.

Yeah, because we all know that troops could magically teleport to threatened sectors without any risk of their own more weakly defended sectors being attacked.

I don't really have a whole DC theory, but had the Confederates won the battle of Gettysburg, do you agree that the war's outcome may well have been quite different? That's all I am saying right now. You've taken a casual statement I made and blown it out of proportion entirely. You're right, I should have said "determined to dislodge them in order to facilitate the peace meal destruction of the Union Army. I didn't. I suppose I'm now paying for that with your completely unprovoked ridicule.

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Early was placed in command of the Second Corps of the Army of Northern Virginia after Cold Harbor. In July, 1864 he marched 14,000 men up the Shenandoah Valley until he encountered a smaller force of Union troops numbering 5,800, commanded by Lew Wallace at Monocacy Junction (about four miles from where I am right now). The larger bulk of the Army of the Potomac was a day or two's march away. Early defeated the smaller force at the cost of some 900 men and a day's march. The next day he marched within the borders of the District of Columbia, but did not believe he had the force to take Fort Stevens. He exchanged artillery fire with the fort, did some light skirmishing, then fell back to White Ferry and crossed the Potomac back into Virginia. The raid accomplished relatively little but did some psychological damage because Early actually managed to get within the borders of DC.

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This hardly counts as an offensive. Here's what this is like:

"By 1944, the strategic offensive capability of the Wehrmacht was totally destroyed."

"But they attacked in the Battle of the Bulge!"

Yes, they managed to start up their Ardennes offensive. It achieved initial successes, but ended up going nowhere and was extremely damaging to those German formation who participated.
This seems like more of the same to me.

__________________
Corporation, noun: an ingenious device for obtaining individual profit without individual responsibility.
~Ambrose Bierce

When I feed the poor, they call me a saint.
When I ask why the poor have no food, they call me a Communist.

~Dom Helder Camara

Businessmen have generally an interest to deceive and even to oppress the public.

~Adam Smith

But those Confederates are just racist to you..



Quote some books. I have 4 shelves filled with books on the Civil War. I am pretty sure you can quote a book I have.





A little raid? 14,000 Confederates in D.C. limits is a little raid?



Thats 2 regiments. That would be like saying the 20th Maine or the 54th Mass were hardly a huge thing.




As yes, because lines never extended more the 5 miles. An avg Union and Confederate Solider marched 12 miles a day. Union troops were moved from the Flanks (the weaker areas) to the Center on day 3. One such unit was the 20th Maine (the unit that held the left flank on Little Round Top). Disproving your theory.



No, it would not have made a difference as Vicksburg still fell. On top of that, the North was all Industrial and had a larger population to draft from. No Army using Napoleon tactics is going to win a war with fewer troops.

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It still was an offensive. With very few casualties suffered by the Confederates.

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It is inaccurate to say that I hate everything. I am strongly in favor of common sense, common honesty, and common decency. This makes me forever ineligible for public office.
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Beagán agus a rá go maith.

Economic Left/Right: 3.75
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -2.87

You should look up the distinctions between "offensive," "attack," and "raid."

Yeah? Doesn't mean they couldn't be heroes. The Wehrmacht was heroic in its resistance (mainly to the Soviets) in 1945. Doesn't mean they weren't, for the most part, a bunch of evil bastards.

Bevin, Alexander, How the South Could Have Won the Civil War. I don't feel like finding the book and then leafing through it to find the relevant passages, so I won't right now.

The point was that the figure is probably disputed, and you're just being a douchebag anyway because it has no relevance to our discussion.

You don't think Gettysburg would have made a difference? I rather think that the presence of some 50,000 Confederates within striking range of Philadelphia and DC would have been cause for concern, don't you?

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Corporation, noun: an ingenious device for obtaining individual profit without individual responsibility.
~Ambrose Bierce

When I feed the poor, they call me a saint.
When I ask why the poor have no food, they call me a Communist.

~Dom Helder Camara

Businessmen have generally an interest to deceive and even to oppress the public.

~Adam Smith

The critical moments at Gettysburg were the union forces holding the high ground and their flank at Little and Big Round Top. Otherwise, the Confederates would have rolled up their flank and routed the union forces. Then Lee did not have good scouting of the enemy. He had tried both the right and left flanks, did not know the union forces were being reinforced in the middle and sent Pickett' on a suicide charge.

Lee's forces retreated back to the Potomac River to cross. Another critical moment was the Union forces not pursuing Lee, as it was raining and the river was swollen. They would have been pinned against an impassable river and the war would have ended.

Offensive (Military term)...is a military operation that seeks through aggressive projection of armed force to occupy territory, gain an objective or achieve some larger strategic, operational or tactical goal.

Early conducted an Offensive operation in 1864.



What is it with you and your hard on for the Wehrmacht?



Ah yes, a book based on Monday Quarterbacking.



You got the official figures wrong. Not I.



No, losing at Gettysburg didn't make a difference. As the Confederates back tracked to get to Gettysburg after Heath went into Gettysburg looking for supplies (Gettysburg was accidental battle, Both sides didn't even hold the High Ground on the first day). The Confederates were mainly North of Gettysburg between June 28th-30th. If the Confederates had Jeb Stuart screening, Heath would have known it wasn't just a militia. Once the Battle started, forces up around Harrisburg were called back to Gettysburg.

Philly would have been taken if Heath (or Stuart) made the right choices. Not fighting at Gettysburg could have made a difference.

Personally the start of the end of the war happened at Chancellorsville. Losing Thomas "Stonewall" Jackson would be like the Allies losing Patton in the middle of WW2. If (thats a big if) Jackson was in command of Second Corps during the march north.. Gettysburg would have been a very very different battle. Units the Jackson commanded did most of the hard fighting late the first day through to the 3rd. Mainly on the Right Flank (area called Culp's Hill) which was the end of the line.

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It is inaccurate to say that I hate everything. I am strongly in favor of common sense, common honesty, and common decency. This makes me forever ineligible for public office.
H. L. Mencken

Beagán agus a rá go maith.

Economic Left/Right: 3.75
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -2.87

If you wanna talk about Civil War history by all means lets. but lets leave the speculation at the door. History is History.

There are so many units (Fighting 69th part of the Irish Bridge, 54th Mass) and Battles to discuss that playing what if games are mindless. The Battle of Gettysburg was not the end of the CSA. They fought for 2 more years and made it to Washington D.C.

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Pioneers are walking all around singing songs about Lenin and they should be shot for it.

Handlebars

"If you are looking for the guilty, you need only look into a mirror"- V

It is inaccurate to say that I hate everything. I am strongly in favor of common sense, common honesty, and common decency. This makes me forever ineligible for public office.
H. L. Mencken

Beagán agus a rá go maith.

Economic Left/Right: 3.75
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -2.87