That is quite likely true in all honesty.

They obviously come with an agenda, but i believe every source does, whther knowingly or subconciously. We all take an inherited value system into everything we do. Granma being a communist source will always come from their perspective and that will impact their commentary. The same can be sade for private media, they come with their agenda and will so impact their agenda. However, by and large they will both usually report facts with accuracy. It tends to be the commentary that is full of bias and opinion.

Reccomend away. I must admit i'm not much of a reader and rarely finish books, but i'm always looking for things to add to my list of things to give a go.

I wouldn't disagree with that, many socialist governments in history have depended on communist support, particularly in fragile coallitions and that is when most concessions have to be made.

I think that depends on the system in place. If it is a presedential system i do agree. Though as far as bourgoise democracies go i prefer a parliamntary proportional representation. Of course that means you could be head of government with only 20% or even less, but it would depend on coallitions.

They would and in such a system that may be fair to. But we can only work with the systems we have.

I good quote i like on why to accept such results and can be applied to left or right (you may not like the source but i think it rings true)
is this

"Where a government has come into power through some form of popular vote, fraudulent or not, and maintains at least an appearance of constitutional legality, the guerrilla outbreak cannot be promoted, since the possibilities of peaceful struggle have not yet been exhausted"- Che


Well i think it depends on the scenario. A question to be asked would be who gave aid first ? If it was the US, the Soviet aid seems to have more legitimacy. It may not be "ok" but in context has more justification.

Well it didn't just look bad, it looked disastrous. And why should we give praise to Pinochet for what happened after his time ? It would be like praising the consecutive Venezuelan governments who oversaw 25 years of recession for the 18 quarters of economic growth under Chavez. It seems inconsisent to me.

And from the pictures and videos i have seen, unlike you i cant use first hand evidence of course, things are still not so great. Have you saw The War on Democracy ? People living in actual dumps with their new born babies while a super rich exist in the cities.

To me the only way to accuratel evaluate the wealth of a society is by judging the wealth of the poorest citizens.

Well i don't quite agree. Yes things are improving. But to me they would most likely have improved under Allende had he had the time. He could have been their Chavez and really grow the economy whilst maintaining the dignity of the poorest. On my evaluation of nations wealth, i believe Chile would be a wealthier country now on that basis.

True, but ultimately not on the same scale. It wasn't communists who overthrew the government, locked people up in a stadium and killed and tortured thousands. That was the fascists alone.



Cheers man. These two discussions are a rare breath of fresh air to me. It's too unusual to be able to talk about these topics and not end up in a slanging match. What is even more rare is finding someone with the willingness to talk about them at any length. The usual kind of response would be one or two lines that basically amount "you are wrong". I also like that some common ground can be found, even when the fundamental positions clash.

I better stop before that deteriorates into a mutual appreciation club

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Viva Fidel

"If there ever was in the history of humanity an enemy who was truly universal, an enemy whose acts and moves trouble the entire world, threaten the entire world, attack the entire world in any way or another, that real and really universal enemy is precisely Yankee imperialism"

"North Americans don't understand... that our country is not just Cuba; our country is also humanity"

[quote=Comrade Joe;129578]A good subject for another thead, eh?


Absolutely. I'm not saying they're 'wrong' in any way. But in a discussion of Allende they will in all likelyhood overstate the 'good' while downplaying the 'bad'. But then you're right. most any media source is likely to do the same. That's why I prefer books...

Nice segue, eh?...

here's a few:

"An Inside View - Allende's Chile" - Edward Boorstein (probably out of print)

"Chile Since Independence" - Leslie Bethell (Cambridge Univ Press)

"A History of Chile - 1808 to 1994" - Collier and Sater (also Cambridge U)

"Fear in Chile - Lives Under Pinochet" - Patricia Politzer (one of the few Chilean journalists who had the stones to speak out while Pinochet was still in power, and survive)

There's tons more I'd love to recommend, but most of them are in Spanish. And, I guess if you're not much of a reader...


True. Every political system is flawed, some more so than others, but we've got to work with what we've got.

Spot on. Sadly, in the case of Chile, it was the Radicals and Communists within the ruling coalition that advocated armed revolutionary activity especially once they were in power.


That's true and in the context of the Cold War, I guess it's totally relevent. So, I'll get off my moralistic soapbox and stop saying intervention is bad no matter what. it is, in my opinion, but of course neither American nor Soviet policy makers bothered to ask ME what I thought at the time. Of course, I was like three months old so...

I'm not saying praise Pinochet. I'm saying the country learned a lot of hard but useful lessons as a result of his dictatorship, like how to run their country better than it's ever been run before. Neither too far to the left nor too far to the right but right down the center.

yeah, I've seen it and for those who have no idea, it's quite an eye opener, but I've been to the same places he went and it's not as bad as he portrays it. yes, there are dirt poor Chileans, but not to the extent he would have had his viewers believe. And there are fewer poor now than under Allende or Pinochet. Again, the government is learning from the past and making positive strides based on the experience (and mistakes) of previous generations.

Agreed. But by that standard your country and mine are both as poor as any other on Earth.


Well, as you know, that's an 'if' we'll never know and could argue about forever without coming to any good conclusion. You may be right. But then, maybe not.


You're right about that, but like I said, had some on the left had their way, the same things would undoubtedly have happened. That's not to justify anything, not the actions of the right or the left. But again, we'll never know 'what might've been'. Sadly.


Stop! I'm gettin all teary-eyed.

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"Yes. That's correct. Making a statement that's 100% true can't be bigoted."

Certainly is. I actually hope you've already started so i have something to do after this


Yeah that might be a step too far. Hola is the extent of my Spanish

I've taken note of the books and as soon as i finish Hegemony or Survival (i know its shameful that a socialist still hasn't read it) I'll start on one of them.

If only the US and Soviets had us in charge eh

True, i kinda misrepresented your point.

Ssshhh, dont tell me that, it's imperative to my argument that Pilger is right.

It is actually my favourite movie ever. You can either credit or blame that for me moving from a simple socialist to a rampant anti imperialist.

Off topic i know, but related to the War on Democracy. Have you seen The Revolution Will Not Be Televised ? My easy second favourite right there.

[/quote]
Well almost, but to me it is the only truly acceptable measure.

Of course it's all "ifs" and "buts", i like to think Philosophy is my thing so i deal in "ifs" and "buts".

Sir it has been a pleasure

Oh and i apologise for my shocking grammar in my last post, my brain was going faster than my fingers could cope with. I was missing words out, writing half words, it wasn't even simple typos

__________________
Viva Fidel

"If there ever was in the history of humanity an enemy who was truly universal, an enemy whose acts and moves trouble the entire world, threaten the entire world, attack the entire world in any way or another, that real and really universal enemy is precisely Yankee imperialism"

"North Americans don't understand... that our country is not just Cuba; our country is also humanity"

[quote=Comrade Joe;129617]I might, but it'll be a while. Got that new job and all. Give me a few days though...


Lamentable. (there's another one for your Spanish vocab, cuz it's the same in both. Gotta love the Latin roots!)


Word!

I won't tell on you.


Yeah, I saw it the day it was available on DVD. Again, there's a fair amount of misrepresentation, but it was a good film none the less. And I give big props to anyone willing to speak truth to power. Even Hugo.



I'm also a big fan of the 'ifs', but I'm an even bigger fan of the 'butts'.

It's all good. For a minute there I was worried Mlurp had somehow hijacked your avatar.

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"Yes. That's correct. Making a statement that's 100% true can't be bigoted."

Nice. Good luck with the job btw.

That should come in handy


I think it's something every Chavez basher should be made to sit down and watch at least once in their life. Would add a bit of perspective.

Now you're talking. I like bug butts and i cannot lie

Oh come on. It was bad, but it wasn't that bad.

I'm taking back the positive rep for that

__________________
Viva Fidel

"If there ever was in the history of humanity an enemy who was truly universal, an enemy whose acts and moves trouble the entire world, threaten the entire world, attack the entire world in any way or another, that real and really universal enemy is precisely Yankee imperialism"

"North Americans don't understand... that our country is not just Cuba; our country is also humanity"

YOU said you like 'bug butts' and you're taking away MY rep points!?!

Well, I guess fair's far.

__________________
"Yes. That's correct. Making a statement that's 100% true can't be bigoted."

lmao my typing really is bad tonight. I can officialy say for the record i do not find insects or any kind of bug sexually attractive.

__________________
Viva Fidel

"If there ever was in the history of humanity an enemy who was truly universal, an enemy whose acts and moves trouble the entire world, threaten the entire world, attack the entire world in any way or another, that real and really universal enemy is precisely Yankee imperialism"

"North Americans don't understand... that our country is not just Cuba; our country is also humanity"

What's the last thing that goes through a bugs mind when he hits a windshield?

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"Have you no decency, sir? At long last, have you left no sense of decency?"
-Joseph Welch

Salvador Allende?

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"Yes. That's correct. Making a statement that's 100% true can't be bigoted."

His butt.

/seventh grade

__________________
"Have you no decency, sir? At long last, have you left no sense of decency?"
-Joseph Welch