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Old 06-16-2008, 05:19 AM
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Default The break with Rome and Reformation

In November 1534 the Act of Supremacy finalised the English break with Rome and confirmed that Henry VIII was the supreme head of the English church, not the Pope. The exact reason for this are not know, be it desire for divorce, the wish for wealth or a real concern from the King about the state of the Church at the time which was rife with corruption both financial and moral. But whatever the reason it was a historic event and whilst it did not mean a break with Catholicism directly it caused a greater accpetance of reformist ideas and eventually England would become a protestant country. All of this would cause many wars and ill-feeling from the continent and it would ultimately shape the face of Britain as it is today, we can clearly see how British culture differs from those found on mainland Europe. So my question is this: was the break from Rome and ultimately the reformationa positive thing leading to more tolerance and possibly even democracy in the long term or was it a negative thing as shown by the immediate religious intolerance created and the warring involved?
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Old 06-16-2008, 06:11 PM
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Originally Posted by leviathon435 View Post
In November 1534 the Act of Supremacy finalised the English break with Rome and confirmed that Henry VIII was the supreme head of the English church, not the Pope. The exact reason for this are not know, be it desire for divorce, the wish for wealth or a real concern from the King about the state of the Church at the time which was rife with corruption both financial and moral. But whatever the reason it was a historic event and whilst it did not mean a break with Catholicism directly it caused a greater accpetance of reformist ideas and eventually England would become a protestant country. All of this would cause many wars and ill-feeling from the continent and it would ultimately shape the face of Britain as it is today, we can clearly see how British culture differs from those found on mainland Europe. So my question is this: was the break from Rome and ultimately the reformationa positive thing leading to more tolerance and possibly even democracy in the long term or was it a negative thing as shown by the immediate religious intolerance created and the warring involved?

I have to say negative. I don't want to be offensive to anyone, not being religous myself, but what kind of church has a king or queen as its head ? Even the idea of a church of "insert any country" seems to be a strange notion. It almost creates an idea that God has some connection to that country and that may even be God's special country or that Jesus was English (in this case). Though nothing ive said really addresses the OP, i just find such a church a rather perverse notion.
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Old 06-16-2008, 07:37 PM
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I think it had both positive and negative effects. It began (or can be seen as part of a larger Protestant process) a slow decline in the power of the Vatican throughout Europe that led to a less centralised power structure.

However, it was also part of a larger problem within Protestantism, that is the proclivity to split into many smaller congregations 'fighting' amongst themselves (sometimes literally, but not usually). One positive thing that can be said about the Catholic church, even with all its many problems, is that they've 'stuck together' through centuries of turmoil. Like a family, you may not always agree or get along, but you stick together. Protestants never really got that.

As far as its effects on England, Joe certainly has a good point about kings versus Pontifs. Also, while it may have led to or helped foment democracy it did not lead to any greater religious tolerance. As an example see the treatment of the Puritans or the Hugenots. The 'state' wasn't too kind to those and many other groups.

And as for the 'why'? I think above all Henry wanted a son, and the Catholic church wasn't helping him out with that goal.
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Old 06-17-2008, 11:20 AM
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Originally Posted by leviathon435 View Post
In November 1534 the Act of Supremacy finalised the English break with Rome and confirmed that Henry VIII was the supreme head of the English church, not the Pope. The exact reason for this are not know, be it desire for divorce, the wish for wealth or a real concern from the King about the state of the Church at the time which was rife with corruption both financial and moral. But whatever the reason it was a historic event and whilst it did not mean a break with Catholicism directly it caused a greater accpetance of reformist ideas and eventually England would become a protestant country. All of this would cause many wars and ill-feeling from the continent and it would ultimately shape the face of Britain as it is today, we can clearly see how British culture differs from those found on mainland Europe. So my question is this: was the break from Rome and ultimately the reformationa positive thing leading to more tolerance and possibly even democracy in the long term or was it a negative thing as shown by the immediate religious intolerance created and the warring involved?
It was positive because England got itself out from under the control of a foreign power (the Roman Catholic Church). It was negative because it was still government-run religion.
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Old 06-17-2008, 11:23 AM
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Originally Posted by Comrade Joe View Post
I have to say negative. I don't want to be offensive to anyone, not being religous myself, but what kind of church has a king or queen as its head ?
What kind of country allows itself to be ruled by a religious figure in a foreign country?

Quote:
Even the idea of a church of "insert any country" seems to be a strange notion. It almost creates an idea that God has some connection to that country and that may even be God's special country or that Jesus was English (in this case). Though nothing ive said really addresses the OP, i just find such a church a rather perverse notion.
One of the reasons why the American founding fathers made sure there wouldn't be a Church of the United States when they put forth the Constitution.
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A panda walks into a cafe. He orders a sandwich, eats it, then draws a gun and fires two shots in the air.

"Why?" asks the confused waiter, as the panda makes toward the exit. The panda produces a badly punctuated wildlife manual and tosses it over his shoulder.

"I'm a panda," he says at the door. "Look it up."

The waiter turns to the relevant entry and, sure enough, finds an explanation.

"Panda. Large black-and-white bear-like mammal, native to China. Eats, shoots and leaves."

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Old 06-17-2008, 12:38 PM
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I think one positive aspect was that, strangely, it brought the state out of religion a little bit more, eventually after some turmoil there was some religious tolerance and an exceptance of different christian faiths and religion became a matter of personal choice. It also as Chan says got rid of foreign influence on Britain and allowed it to rule itself, ultimately, it can be argued, allowing democracy to form. During the process of the break with Rome we can already see some positive changes being made, like More, a layman, becoming Lord Chacellor in replace of the corrupt Wolsey.
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Old 06-17-2008, 02:01 PM
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Originally Posted by leviathon435 View Post
I think one positive aspect was that, strangely, it brought the state out of religion a little bit more, eventually after some turmoil there was some religious tolerance and an exceptance of different christian faiths and religion became a matter of personal choice. It also as Chan says got rid of foreign influence on Britain and allowed it to rule itself, ultimately, it can be argued, allowing democracy to form. During the process of the break with Rome we can already see some positive changes being made, like More, a layman, becoming Lord Chacellor in replace of the corrupt Wolsey.
Ask the Nonconformists about how much "tolerance" there was in Anglican England.
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A panda walks into a cafe. He orders a sandwich, eats it, then draws a gun and fires two shots in the air.

"Why?" asks the confused waiter, as the panda makes toward the exit. The panda produces a badly punctuated wildlife manual and tosses it over his shoulder.

"I'm a panda," he says at the door. "Look it up."

The waiter turns to the relevant entry and, sure enough, finds an explanation.

"Panda. Large black-and-white bear-like mammal, native to China. Eats, shoots and leaves."

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Old 06-17-2008, 02:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chan View Post
Ask the Nonconformists about how much "tolerance" there was in Anglican England.
Yes, I agree there was a lot of persecution, hence the influx of non-conformists into what is now the United States, but compare this to the continent and it was not as bad.
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Old 06-17-2008, 03:02 PM
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Yes, I agree there was a lot of persecution, hence the influx of non-conformists into what is now the United States, but compare this to the continent and it was not as bad.
Like saying that one form of torture isn't quite as bad as another.
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A panda walks into a cafe. He orders a sandwich, eats it, then draws a gun and fires two shots in the air.

"Why?" asks the confused waiter, as the panda makes toward the exit. The panda produces a badly punctuated wildlife manual and tosses it over his shoulder.

"I'm a panda," he says at the door. "Look it up."

The waiter turns to the relevant entry and, sure enough, finds an explanation.

"Panda. Large black-and-white bear-like mammal, native to China. Eats, shoots and leaves."

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  #10 (permalink)  
Old 06-17-2008, 03:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Chan View Post
Like saying that one form of torture isn't quite as bad as another.
Yes, by no means am I defending the religious persecution, I'm a quaker myself so I know what things happened.
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