You buy stuff which has tax which is collect by your Government to fund itself right?

It is your fault just as it is for every Brit and American who keeps voting them in. Your job as a citizen (which you are and so am I) is to make an informed choice, and spread the word. If that is not heard of you have to become what you deemed as criminal a "home grown grown terrorist" of the state. This doesn't mean bombing or shooting but doing what is considered wrong by those who pass moral judgment ( like you have)..

Its about standing up and saying no more and standing your ground.

__________________
Pioneers are walking all around singing songs about Lenin and they should be shot for it.

Handlebars

"If you are looking for the guilty, you need only look into a mirror"- V

It is inaccurate to say that I hate everything. I am strongly in favor of common sense, common honesty, and common decency. This makes me forever ineligible for public office.
H. L. Mencken

Beagán agus a rá go maith.

Economic Left/Right: 3.75
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -2.87

Which is what I do already, and I'll bet I work harder to undermine my government than most, but that doesn't mean you have to be terrorist and go around killing civilians to make a point.] like you say. It also doesn't mean doing "what is considered morally wrong", it means exerting influence, debating, persuading and encouraging.

__________________
Trust me, I'm a socialist!

There's power in a factory,power in the land, power in the hand of the worker. But it all amounts to nothing if together we don't stand, there is power in a union.
The union forever defending our rights, down with the blackleg, workers unite. To our brothers and our sisters in many far off lands, there is power in a union.
Money speaks for money, the devil for his own. - Billy Bragg

Hearsay then.

The SAS was caught? Why would the SAS not be in that area legitimately protecting British interests as it is their remit to do? Your posts indicates a heavy presence of activists who were threatening, one would expect appropriate counter-measures.

As to crossing the border, there are more controls on the border than the military. You implicate cross border controls like Immigration and Customs & Excise - departments which are not about to roll over to the military without clearing it through express written authority and even less likely to consider doing this without securing bulletproof, traceable assurance that there will be no repercussions for them.

This would leave a fair trail for any investigative journalist, you would expect it to appear in public by this time. Has it?

It is common knowledge that the attack was planned for the UVF by the SAS from their loyalist contact point at Mitchells Farm in North Armagh. The SAS also put together the car bombs and oversaw their clearance into the Irish Republic. They also had colluders within An Gardai Siochana. The Oireachtas recognise the event as an act of international state terrorism, the Barron report it must be remembered could not allow to bring its full conclusion to light for fear of the backlash.

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"We will disobey your laws as long as they are unjust and they make a world shaped only for your profit"-G8 protestor Genoa 2001





NO PASERÁN!!

"We learned a long time ago that we should never subject ourselves to the schedules of the powerful. We had to follow our own calendar and impose it on those above.” - Subcommandante Marcos

Ah, yes.. because British Government tells you the truth.

Yes, The SAS were in the Republic of Ireland many of times. One operation was to capture Sean McKenna at his home in the Republic of Ireland, and Sean Cleary (who the SAS shot to death) while McKenna was taken over the border and handed off to the British Army claiming he was captured in Northern Ireland. Dublin Court fined 8 SAS members for a 100 pounds for firearm offenses.

One does not have a right to violate International Law. The Republic of Ireland is not British, They had to ask for permission to set foot in the Republic of Ireland and they did not. That is an Act of War by International Law. A Nation State can not go after an NGO within the border of another State without clearly consistent or clear evidence that the State is proving help to the NGO.



Oh yes, because a person from Scotland working for ICE is really sitting on the border between ROI and the UK. Get real ( it was more like Black Watch), Bessbrook Mill was an Army outpost out of the dozens which sat in heavily republican area along the border. It wasn't cleared so some Custom Agent could do their job. It was never about Collecting, Exercising or anything of that nature along the border. It was there to keep Republicans in a choke hold.

Wanna know how I know this? I can drive the M1 from Dublin right up to the border and get on the A1 and not even get checked on my way to Belfast. Or I could take the M1 get on R177 and take a right and go right up to Forkhill (another British Army base location during this time) and not get checked 1 time. Or I can just get on a boat in Dublin and sail up to any coast town and not get checked.

LMAO, This stuff happen in the 70s and 80s.. and the British Government lost in European Human Rights Court several times over these things.

__________________
Pioneers are walking all around singing songs about Lenin and they should be shot for it.

Handlebars

"If you are looking for the guilty, you need only look into a mirror"- V

It is inaccurate to say that I hate everything. I am strongly in favor of common sense, common honesty, and common decency. This makes me forever ineligible for public office.
H. L. Mencken

Beagán agus a rá go maith.

Economic Left/Right: 3.75
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -2.87

This is about you telling me the truth.

Mhmmm...I just said the same.

The SAS captured/killed people regarded as terrorists. This is indeed shocking news. But was that not their job? And would the same people not regard any SAS officer a legitimate target for killing?

Did the IRA remain above the law? Is this the saints v the sinners, where the saints commit no sin?

What you say is that the SAS acted in contravention of international law and clearly if what you say is accurate, this is something they should have avoided. However, in a situation like that - which people with IRA affiliations are fond of referring to as war rather than terrorism, when it works to justify IRA lawbreaking - this may have been a necessary judgement call in order to protect innocent people from being bombed.

Uhhh, not sure what this means, but Immigration and C&E are two completely different government departments.

The word is excising, you tool And nothing has to be cleared for you to be stopped and checked out. I personally know C&E officers who were held at gunpoint on the border by such people and suffered nervous breakdown because of it. I also personally know two people whose office buildings were bombed and destroyed by Irish terrorists. That department has responsibility on the border regardless of your theory.

If there is no reason to stop you, you may be allowed to move freely. This does not mean you are not observed. You can be comfortably observed from several miles off...the government knows about technology and that is public knowledge.

This does not mean the IRA is blameless and the UK government is completely to blame.

And what have I said that isn't true in this topic? Not one damn thing.



Oh yes, they were regarded as that because your ignorant political leaders were dumbfounded when a group of people said enough with shooting protesters (Bloody Sunday) and running over kids in the Saracens. God forbid people stand up to abuse by a Government who only gave rights to Protestants and denied Catholics housing, public jobs and said their votes only counted as 1/5th of the Protestant vote. Shame on them. They should have respected the Queen and her undying support of those who saw her as the Head of their Religion.

Their job? Their job was to shoot to kill and they did, they shot unarmed civilians.

Of course the SAS and any British solider was a legitimate target, they have been since 1172 AD. That has never changed. They "enforced" laws that were unjust. Surely, if the Irish Defense Force went to the UK took over and said you can't vote because you are Scottish, English and Welsh.. wonder how well that would go over? I am guessing, Your Highlanders, the Posh C**** from the London and the Sheep fvckers would turn around and do the same thing.



Who's law? They were above English and Irish Law (until 1985) as they didn't recognize them as legitimate Governing bodies per the Proclamation of 1916. Hell, I don't recognize English rule over Northern Ireland and this is 2008.

Of sins are always committed in war. I don't deny that. But fair game is bitch and the IRA did it better then the Loyalist and the British Army.

Nobody was innocent. Loyalist were just as guilty as Nationalist/Republicans.. The British Government was guilty for providing weapons and training to the Loyalist.

The British Government didn't protect the Catholics who were burned out of their homes. From the ashes of Bombay Street rose the Provisionals.



I threw them together. Deal with it.



Exercising your duty (tax aka excising). Geez..

Good for you.. but I can tell you, they weren't C&E officers during the 70's, 80's as the British Army and the RUC were running the check points.

Sucks to be those people, but again, if you think that you can use terror against the Irish and it not be brought back to the England, you are living in a fairy tale. It was only after the England campaign did your Government start taking them seriously and start to realize that eye for an eye works both ways, oh and you didn't want your Economy to collapse. BTW which one.

I enjoyed watching the Manchester bombing (which happened on My Birthday). After that Manchester got a sweet downtown.



Yeah.. because the RUC/PSNI/British Army really got a hold of old Slab (Thomas Murphy) living right on the border.



Did I say they were? No. So take that argument elsewhere.

__________________
Pioneers are walking all around singing songs about Lenin and they should be shot for it.

Handlebars

"If you are looking for the guilty, you need only look into a mirror"- V

It is inaccurate to say that I hate everything. I am strongly in favor of common sense, common honesty, and common decency. This makes me forever ineligible for public office.
H. L. Mencken

Beagán agus a rá go maith.

Economic Left/Right: 3.75
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -2.87

It is not objective.

Those facts are not disputed. The people who were treated that way have my sympathy.

It is not how they would see it. Can you honestly say these people were not activists? If they were unarmed, that is wrong. But they were involved in what was regarded as terrorist activity.

Sheep fvckers? We prefer the term sheep shaggers.

They did come to Scotland. As you know, the Scots have worked to deal with this injustice by political means.

The Labour Party has not been lead by an Englishman for years now. Neil Kinnock was Welsh (so even the Welsh have caught onto the idea that you have to get one of your own to the top of the political tree in order to get these annoying English gits out of your country's business) John Smith was the next leader and was a Scot, followed by Blair, another Scot and now Gordon Brown yet another Scot.

Nobody died to acquire this power.

I understand where you're coming from, but this is sticking your head in the sand. It is the law. I don't accept it is right, but I don't accept the violent way is going to work for the Irish. It is just distracting attention from the real way to acquire power, which is by political means.




Why would they do that? What reason did they have to train loyalists?

Again, I understand the injustice of that situation. It is not disputed.

Yes...they were there at that time. They are now both retired.

BTW which one what?

It was not going to stop with England though, was it? It is known that the IRA had a hitlist which included Scottish targets.

And as you know, other countries have been subjugated by English arrogance and have found non-violent ways to outflank them.

Do you not see that the violence is playing straight into their hands? While the Irish are mindlessly running about involving themselves in that pointless crap, no political progress is made and that is the real way for them to gain power over these gits...

Jonathan Ball was 3 years old.

He was a beautiful child. He was shopping for a Mother's Day gift.

Tim Parry was ****ing 12 years old Finny. 12. Ring any bells with you, that particular age?

My aunt lives in Manchester and has 2 children. She used that shopping centre every week. I have shopped there myself, with her.

Your statement turns my stomach. I will not be watching your link.

These people can be known, but reasons exist to leave them be. It is a mistake to underestimate any government department. They work in mysterious ways and their reasons exist but are not obvious. They get around to dealing with things in their own sweet time.

Yes. I may do that.

I am being very objective. If I wasn't objective I would be saying the IRA can do no wrong.



I can give my sympathy to poor person but its not going to make them rich.



Yeah, I can give names of of people died just by rubber bullets.

You had to be at least 16 to be in the IRA. Look at that list and tell me how many do you think were in the IRA?



Its the same thing.

The Irish Defense Force did not go to Scotland to take over your country.

So, you do not take an Oath to the Queen? Laws passed in Westminster have no effect on you? You have your own Scottish Army? You have your own economy? You have your own Currency? You can refuse to send troops to wars which those in Westminster gets involved with?

So tell me what has Scotland done with Political means? I can show you what violent means gets you.. Its called United States of America, Republic of Ireland, Rhodesia (now Zimbabwe), and Israel.



Doesn't matter. The Labour Party is part of the English establishment. That part has accepted English rule in Scotland.

Because they agree with English rule. They say God Save the Queen as they look for a pay check from Westminster.



So because its the law makes it right? It was the law to trade slaves and enslave people, that didn't make it right. It was the law (Penal Laws) to take land from Catholics and give it to Protestant landlords. It was a right to take tonnes of food from Ireland so the those in England could partake in gluttony while the Irish (who harvested this food) were starving.

You know what political means has gotten Ireland? Nothing. Its been 10 years since the Good Friday Agreement (Belfast Agreement) and Northern Ireland is still ruled by Westminster. Sectarian violence has gone up.



British and Loyalist collusion








What are you on about? As long as Scotland was part of the UK and the British Government was still in Northern Ireland.. Scotland will remain a legitimate target. It had nothing to do with taking over anyone or anybody.. its was about getting the British Government out of Ireland. End of Story.

And I gave you a list of countries that proved you wrong. You can even throw Afghanistan, South Africa, India, and Pakistan on to that list.

Nobody has outflanked the British Government by political means.



You are such a British Tool. Those Irish that mindlessly ran around from 1916-1921, have a country of their own. Hell, they should have the whole Island, but because of political means (Anglo-Irish treaty) 6 counties remain in English hands.

So sell your political means bit elsewhere.



That's what happens in war. Don't like it, tell your Government you want the Union Jack taken down at the Stormont and to raise the tri-color. Let the Irish settle their problems. They did it before, they can do it again.

Good, your comments turn mine as well. You are defending British "right" in Ireland. The same British Government that have caused 836 years of turmoil in Ireland. I find the Union Jack flying on the isle of Ireland (Hibernia) as an insult.

You know that the Manchester bombing was one of the rare times that the British Government knew about it hours before and yet somehow 200 people still got injured.. doesn't that seem a bit weird?

The IRA always called in warnings and gave the location of the area the bomb was in the 90s.



Do you know how many raids the RUC/PSNI have raided Thomas Murphy? They tried it in March 2006 and they couldn't get him. It took the Irish Government to arrest him the following year on Tax Evasion, which he won't be convicted.

Thomas Murphy is not a person you take your sweet time with. He planned the Warren Point ambush (killing 18 British Soldiers in 1979), He financed the IRA's English bombing campaign of the 90's.. Warrington, Bishopgate, and Canary Wharf and he was in charge of the South Armagh Bridge and Chief of Staff of the Army Council. The British Government wanted him badly.

__________________
Pioneers are walking all around singing songs about Lenin and they should be shot for it.

Handlebars

"If you are looking for the guilty, you need only look into a mirror"- V

It is inaccurate to say that I hate everything. I am strongly in favor of common sense, common honesty, and common decency. This makes me forever ineligible for public office.
H. L. Mencken

Beagán agus a rá go maith.

Economic Left/Right: 3.75
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -2.87

That is the whole direction of your argument.

THIS is rich - you want sympathy from me for a cause which thinks nothing of bombing my people. Way to enlist support.
You can get off, you will not tell me or mine what to do. I don't agree with your methods, you will get nothing until they change. That is my opinion and with normal, civilised people I am entitled to hold it.
I have my own cause to progress, but I don't kill Irish people to progress it, that is a ridiculous and selfish premise.
And it is hard to sympathise with someone who wants to kill you. No matter if he has the gift of the gab.

Yes, that is wrong.

Sure you know the technical details better than I.

The UK union did it, however.

No. Nor do I stand for the national anthem.

Some. Scotland has its own parliament now dealing with many issues. It has given a platform for the nationalist party to work from and you know that is increasing in power.

Yes, we have a military force which is currently part of the UK force. The Scottish regiments are retained, based in Scotland and can devolve as easily as the rest of the union.

Scots are active in the UK economy, ask RBS.

Scotland has always retained its own currency.

Defence decisions are shared. We have as much ability as you do in the US and more, in fact - We have the ability to vote the UK government out of Scottish Parliament in protest, as we did after the unwanted Iraq war, and make them think twice as they need our support in the General Elections.

It has put Scottish people at the head of government in the UK for a long time now and presumably those people are looking out for Scottish interests.

The country is economically strong, nobody is starving, we live in a democracy and have a decent standard of living. There are social issues, you have those in every society.

No terrorism was involved and the majority of Scots are happy with this arrangement. What is it you want? For us to do what only a minority of our people actually want at the moment?

But...that would be oppression. And WRONG.

Israel...US...you will have to clarify this, no idea what your point is. But the UK and Zimbabwe (cheers for assuming I don't know about the name change, if you ever read anything in the other place you would know it is one of my favourite topics) are poles apart in living conditions for their people.

Lol...it is part of the UK establishment. England does not rule in Scotland.

Scotland has more democratic power than England at the moment. (it has outflanked the British Government by political means) I am sure you know this, but Scotland currently votes on and affects decisions on English matters, where England HAS NO VOTE AT ALL AND NO POWER over Scottish matters in the devolved Scottish government.

England does not rule anywhere, there is not even an Englishman at the top, and the UK government is democratic and weighted for equality.

W/e

I think I said this: "It is the law. I don't accept it is right, but I don't accept the violent way is going to work for the Irish."

Work within the system. There is a political system in place, get in there, get elected, say what needs said to get that done and then use the position of power to change things.

There may have been a case for violence in the past, but that is over.

So? Half this time has been spent suspending the Irish political process because of medieval entrenched, stubborn idiots who cannot move forward in the process. If they want to waste time like that, nothing is what they will get.

British and Loyalist collusion