I have glanced over your sources, one link doesnt open for me and many i cant read, so i will have to take your word for those.

Another i found interesting as it starts from the premise that a few communists brought death to 14 million people. So they had reached their conclusion before they even got started. So i agree we can trade sources all day long, but since your sources are rather suspect, reach a conclusion before they even do any research and probably depend on 'evidence' gathered by nazi's, i will stick to believing mine.

And you challenge me to go to Ukraine, or else my opinion is meaningless, but really unless you go back to 1930's Ukraine your opinion is just as meaningless. Using your logic, any opinions we have on nazi Germany or the holocaust are also meaningless unless we go to Germany. I simply cannot and will not accept that.

I would love to go to Ukraine, it is on my to do list, but unless you want to pay for my visit, it aint gonna happen any time soon

And well it is on my to do list, it still only comes about 5th or 6th on the list, so it is a long way off yet.

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Viva Fidel

"If there ever was in the history of humanity an enemy who was truly universal, an enemy whose acts and moves trouble the entire world, threaten the entire world, attack the entire world in any way or another, that real and really universal enemy is precisely Yankee imperialism"

"North Americans don't understand... that our country is not just Cuba; our country is also humanity"

It's interesting that you continue to press this idea that 'evidence' was gathered by Nazis. I don't deny that they were well served by trying to make more out of the situation than it really was, but since the only sources I've seen which mention Nazi propaganda are the two you provided, both of which are questionable, I'm gonna hafta, well, like you, stick with my own sources.

Yes, I do challenge you to go to Ukraine. Not because your opinions are meaningless, more specifically because it will challenge your beliefs and give you an opportunity to speak first-hand with survivors, not just survivors of the famine but of the Nazi invasion AND the Soviet invasion. One doesn't have to go to Germany to find holocaust survivors as we've got plenty who came to the US, but Ukrainian famine survivors generally stayed there, got deported to Siberia or emigrated to Canada or Australia (a tiny minority) and they have tended to have a FAR lower profile that did/do holocaust survivors. That's why you'd almost certainly have to go there to speak with them, but the same does not hold true for survivors of other atrocities.

also, I'm not challenging you to TRAVEL to Ukraine. I'm challenging you to LIVE anywhere in the former Soviet Union. You're in university, right? If you are, take advantage of the time you have and go do a year abroad. See for yourself what the great socialist experiment did to 15 different countries inside the USSR.

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"Yes. That's correct. Making a statement that's 100% true can't be bigoted."

Well i've never met a holocaust survivor, not one. I have never met anyone who lived in nazi Germany. What i can do is analyse sources and draw my own conclusions. This is the same for any historical event. And what is gained by a visit to the USSR would be limited, as we have had over 15 years of capitalism to destroy that society, and so it would not resemble what the mighty union of freeborn republics left behind.

But i will go, certainly to Russia, when the opportunity arises. And i am not at university, i pulled the plug on that venture for now.

Excerpts that further support my claim of nazi collaboration can be found on wiki

Denial of the Holodomor - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

__________________
Viva Fidel

"If there ever was in the history of humanity an enemy who was truly universal, an enemy whose acts and moves trouble the entire world, threaten the entire world, attack the entire world in any way or another, that real and really universal enemy is precisely Yankee imperialism"

"North Americans don't understand... that our country is not just Cuba; our country is also humanity"

Actually, with the exception of bill boards and other adverts, Russia, Ukraine, and probably all the other 'republics' look very similar to the way they did before 1991.

Not much has changed in the last 16 years.

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"Yes. That's correct. Making a statement that's 100% true can't be bigoted."

Here's ONE sentence from the same source you provided:

"Today, Holodomor denial is not supported by any serious academic scholars but is still kept alive by fringe writers and organizations, often ones that have found outlet via the Internet."

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"Yes. That's correct. Making a statement that's 100% true can't be bigoted."

Yes but Holodomor denial, is to deny it happened, not argue the cause of its happening. I would say to debate the cause is very much supported in academic circles. It was when at college i was turned onto this by my lecturer. I dont believe he would have did this if there wasnt a serious case to be made.

__________________
Viva Fidel

"If there ever was in the history of humanity an enemy who was truly universal, an enemy whose acts and moves trouble the entire world, threaten the entire world, attack the entire world in any way or another, that real and really universal enemy is precisely Yankee imperialism"

"North Americans don't understand... that our country is not just Cuba; our country is also humanity"

You can make the case all day long that the famine was caused by environmental factor if you like...

but the numbers you provided in an earlier post directly refute that type of arguement.

Clearly, the environment was ONE factor, as was forced collectivization, as was Stalin's policy toward the so-called 'kulaks'.

One of the primary reasons I keep going back to my suggestion that you go and see for yourself is that there's no substitute for personal experience. You can learn a whole lot from books, but until you see it with your own eyes, it's just so much theory, and is therefore suspect.

It would seem that you hold firm to your idea that the environment and the actions of dissident peasants were the main causes, right?

I simply disagree. I believe that the environmental factors were significantly exacerbated by the direct malicious action and by the ineptitude of the soviet government.

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"Yes. That's correct. Making a statement that's 100% true can't be bigoted."

The only way in which i believe government policy enhanced the problem was by trading grain for machinery. But this i believe was necessary. Stalin had predicted the invasion of a capitalist power and so it would have been irresponsible to not industrialise. If they hadnt made the exchanges the industrialisation that allowed the liberation of europe from the Nazi's would never happened.

I read over the thread again and see that you mentioned i sight no source for my figures. Yoyu are right i only gave the authors name. But it was taken from a book called Stalin : A Political Biography.

Even discarding my figures and using your reduced figures, we still see that peasant sabotage existed and certainly must have strongly impacted upon the famine.

__________________
Viva Fidel

"If there ever was in the history of humanity an enemy who was truly universal, an enemy whose acts and moves trouble the entire world, threaten the entire world, attack the entire world in any way or another, that real and really universal enemy is precisely Yankee imperialism"

"North Americans don't understand... that our country is not just Cuba; our country is also humanity"

As I see it, you're overstating the case for sabotage based on a limited (and limiting) political view.

At any rate, have a look at these figues from Holodomor: - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"After recognition of the famine situation in Ukraine during the drought and poor harvests, the Soviet government in Moscow continued to export grain rather than retain its crop to feed the people,[47] even though on a significantly lower level than in previous years. In 1930–31 there had been 5,832,000 tons[vague] of grains exported In 1931–32, grain exports declined to 4,786,000 tons. In 1932–33, grain exports were just 1,607,000 tons and in 1933–34, this further declined to 1,441,000 tons.[48] Officially published data [49] slightly differ"

Regardless of what Stalin or the Politburo thought MIGHT happen (an invasion), for the government to continue exporting grain in the millions of tonns while they are fully aware people are starving is simply CRIMINAL.

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"Yes. That's correct. Making a statement that's 100% true can't be bigoted."

Well as you see the exports almost fourfold. And to say they were exporting grain at this time is criminal, i would tend to agree with, if it had not been for very particular circumstances. History proves Stalin to be right, what he thought "might" happen, did happen. And i dont believe there is any "might" about it. It was certainly going to happen. The capitalist world always tries to crush communism and socialism wherever it appears. The Soviets learned this very quickly in the civil war following the revolution, when capitalist troops were on Russian soil looking to install a capitalist regime.

Had they not prepared for this happening again the British would have folded pretty quickly without the USSR doing 90% of the fighting. There is every chance Europe would now be called something like 'Greater Germany'.

So i living in Britain have much to be thankful of concerning the grain exchanges, even if it did intensify the famine. It was a case of the ends justifying the means, no matter how evil the means look when evaluated on their own, without contemplation of the wider picture.

__________________
Viva Fidel

"If there ever was in the history of humanity an enemy who was truly universal, an enemy whose acts and moves trouble the entire world, threaten the entire world, attack the entire world in any way or another, that real and really universal enemy is precisely Yankee imperialism"

"North Americans don't understand... that our country is not just Cuba; our country is also humanity"