The judge works with an established body of laws and rules of behavior. The judge is also subjected to public scrutiny.

No so with murderous revolutionaries. They write their own rules and make their own laws unto themselves. And they do this without any overseeing or any scrutiny. Indeed, to even inquire into the topic is to become yet another victim.

Ergo, I consider it quite reasonable to say that judges, in the absence of evidence of murderous killing sprees, are reasonably considered innocent of murderous killing sprees

And of course, by the same token, it is equally reasonable, in the absence of evidence, to consider murderous revolutionaries to be quite guilty of murderous killing sprees, given that murderous killing is their stock in trade.

Kinda like Mafioso I should think. Just being a member of the Mafia makes it reasonable to assume that you are guilty of some murderous criminality - even if there is no legal evidence to support such a contention. It is a reasonable conclusion.

You mean Hitler didn't put himself on the line and kill himself when his vision for Germany ultimately failed?

Methinks you are crawling out on a branch here. It is pretty easy to show that apart from baking Jews in ovens, Hitler had quite a few good qualities and worked to help the poor and sick (at least the Aryan poor and sick).

Having a few good qualities does not make up for murderous killing sprees.

Hitler's good points pale next to his passion for baking Jews.

That's a common complaint when I show the pure logic of people's statements.

I didn't "twist" your statement at all. I just stripped it of its folliage to expose the logic underneath it.

And it is a common point of logical dissonance for socialist apologists for murderers. I don't expect you would like what I have to say about Che.

Actually, Che and Che's own actions don't bother me nearly half as much as your praise for him.

It is your praise for him that I consider objectionable. Praising murderous killers is just wrong no matter what.

That's not much different than Lenin's defence of the absurdity of the Vanguard theory.

These people were clearly killed for their own best interests no doubt. Lenin (and Che) know best.

As I've shown in the Iraqi War thread, the Iraqi war is NOT illegal and cannot rationally or legally be asserted otherwise.

And that is a very important point because engaging in illegal war most certainly is a crime against humanity and constitutes murder, plain and simple.

And any soldier who participates in an illegal war is vulnerable to this. Indeed, Che was a wanted criminal because of it. That he died on the battlefield is just as well, because by most laws of human societies, Che was long overdue for a capital execution.

But Che, like James Dean, Marilyn Monroe and Lady Diana died young and handsome - thus he's held to be some kind of hero.

Ever stop to think that it was only Che's fortunate good looks that made him famous? Do you think all those college kids with Che posters and Che t-shirts would give one whit for the peasants of South America?

My friend certainly does, considering that he comes from a family of South American peasants.

__________________
"Moreover, I am cognizant of the interrelatedness of all communities and states...Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere. We are caught in an inescapable network of mutuality, tied in a single garment of destiny. Whatever affects one directly, affects all indirectly. Never again can we afford to live with the narrow, provincial "outside agitator" idea. Anyone who lives inside the United States can never be considered an outsider anywhere within its bounds."



~Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.

Hugo Chávez wrote:
What made Che an assassn ?


People executed by Che en la Sierra Maestra during fights against Batista (1957-1958 ). No trial, no justice no nothing but the killing

1. Aristio - 10-57
2. Manuel Capitán - 1957
3. Juan Chang - 9-57
4. “Bisco” Echevarría Martínez - 8-57
5. Eutimio Guerra - 2-18-57
6. Dionisio Lebrigio - 9-57
7. Juan Lebrigio - 9-57
8. El ” Negro ” Napoles- 2-18-57
9. “Chicho ” Osorio - 1-17-57
10. Un maestro no identificado (“El Maestro”) - 9-57
11-12. Dos hermanos, espías del grupo de Masferrer -9-57
13-14 Dos campesinos no identificados-4-57

Executed or sent to be executed by Che Guevara while in charge of a commando in en Santa Clara ( 1-3 de enero de 1959)

1. Ramón Alba - 1-3-59**
2. José Barroso- 1-59
3. Joaquín Casillas Lumpuy - 1-2-59**
4. Félix Cruz - 1-1-59
5. Alejandro García Olayón - 1-31-59**
6. Héctor Mirabal - 1-59
7. J. Mirabal- 1-59
8. Felix Montano - 1-59
9. Cornelio Rojas - 1-7-59**
10. Vilalla - 1-59
11. Domingo Alvarez Martínez 1-4-59**
12. Cano del Prieto -1-7-59**
13. José Fernández Martínez-1-2-59
14. José Grizel Segura-1-7-59** ( Manacas)
15. Arturo Pérez Pérez-1-24-59**
16. Ricardo Rodríguez Pérez-1-11-59**
17. Francisco Rosell -1-11-59
18. Ignacio Rosell Leyva -1-11-59
19. Antonio Ruíz Beltrán -1-11-59
20. Ramón Santos García-1-12-59
21. Pedro SocarrásS-1-12-59**
22. Manuel Valdés – 1-59
23. Tace José Veláquez -12-59**
** Che firmó la pena de muerte antes de partir de Santa Clara.

Documented executions at Fortaleza de la Cabaña prison (3 de enero al 26 de noviembre del 1959)

1. Vilau Abreu - 7-3-59
2. Humberto Aguiar - 1959
3. Garmán Aguirre - 1959
4. Pelayo Alayón - 2-59
5. José Luis Alfaro Sierra - 7-1-59
6. Pedro Alfaro - 7-25-59
7. Mriano Alonso - 7-1-59
8. José Alvaro - 3-1-59
9. Alvaro Anguieira Suárez – 1-4-59
10. Aniella - 1959
11. Mario Ares Polo- 1-2-59
12. José Ramón Bacallao - 12-23-59**
13. Severino Barrios - 12-9-59**
14. Eugenio Bécquer - 9-29-59
15. Francisco Bécquer - 7-2-59
16. Ramón Biscet– 7-5-59
17. Roberto Calzadilla - 1959
18. Eufemio Cano - 4-59
19. Juan Capote Fiallo - 5-1-59
20. Antonio Carralero - 2-4-59
21. Gertrudis Castellanos - 5-7-59
22. José Castaño Quevedo - 3-6-59.
23. Raúl Castaño - 5-30-59
24. Eufemio Chala - 12-16-59**
25. José Chamace - 10-15-59
26. José Chamizo - 3-59
27. Raúl Clausell - 1-28-59
28. Angel Clausell - 1-18-59
29. Demetrio Clausell - 1-2-59
30. José Clausell-1-29-59
31. Eloy Contreras- 1-18-59
32. Alberto Corbo - 12-7-59**
33. Emilio Cruz Pérez - 12-7-59**
34. Orestes Cruz – 1959
35. Adalberto Cuevas – 7-2-59**
36. Cuni - 1959
37. Antonio de Beche - 1-5-59
38. Mateo Delgado-12-4-59
39. Armando Delgado - 1-29-59
40. Ramón Despaigne - 1959
41. José Díaz Cabezas 7-30-59
42. Fidel Díaz Marquina – 4-9-59
43. Antonio Duarte - 7-2-59
44. Ramón Fernández Ojeda - 5-29-59
45. Rudy Fernández - 7-30-59
46. Ferrán Alfonso - 1-12-59
47. Salvador Ferrero - 6-29-59
48. Victor Figueredo - 1-59
49. Eduardo Forte - 3-20-59
50. Ugarde Galán - 1959
51. Rafael García Muñiz - 1-20-59
52. Adalberto García 6-6-59
53. Alberto García - 6-6-59
54. Jacinto García - 9-8-59
55. Evelio Gaspar - 12-4-59**
56. Armada Gil y Diez y Diez Cabezas- 12-4-59**
57. José González Malagón - 7-2-59
58. Evaristo Benerio González - 11-14-59
59. Ezequiel González-59
60. Secundino González - 1959
61. Ricardo Luis Grao – 2-3-59
62. Ricardo José Grau - 7-59
63. Oscar Guerra – 3-9-59
64. Julián Hernádez -2-9-59
65. Francisco Hernández Leyva – 4-15-59
66. Antonio Hernández - 2-14-59
67. Gerardo Hernández - 7-26-59
68. Olegario Hernández - 4-23-59
69. Secundino Hernández - 1-59
70. Rodolfo Hernández Falcón – 1-9-59
71. Raúl Herrera -2-18-59
72. Jesús Insua-7-30-59
73. Enrique Izquierdo- 7-3-- 59
74. Silvino Junco – 11-15-59
75. Enrique La Rosa- 1959
76. Bonifacio Lasaparla- 1959
77. Jesús Lazo Otaño -1959
78. Ariel Lima Lago – 8-1-59- (Menor)
79. René López Vidal -7-3-59
80. Armando Mas – 2-17-59
81. Ornelio Mata- 1-30-59
82. Evelio Mata Rodriguez- 2-8-59
83. Elpidio Mederos -1-9-59
84. José Medina -5-17-59
85. José Mesa 7-23-59
86. Fidel Mesquía Díaz 7-11-59
87. Juan Manuel Milián - 1959
88. Jose Milián Pérez – 4-3-59
89. Francisco Mirabal – 5-29-59
90. Luis Mirabal - 1959
91. Ernesto Morales - 1959
92. Pedro Morejón – 3-59
93. Carlos Muñoz M.D.- 1959
94. César Nicolardes Rojas- 1-7-59
95. Víctor Nicolardes Rojas- 1-7-59
96. José Nuñez – 3-59
97. Viterbo O’Reilly – 2-27-59
98. Félix Oviedo – 7-21-59
99. Manuel Paneque – 8-16-59
100. Pedro Pedroso – 12-1-59**
101. Diego Pérez Cuesta - 1959
102. Juan Pérez Hernández – 5-29-59
103. Diego Pérez Crela - 4-3-59
104. José Pozo – 1-59
105. Emilio Puebla – 4-30-59
106. Alfredo Pupo – 5-29-59
107. Secundino Ramírez – 4-2-59
108. Ramón Ramos - 4-23-59
109. Pablo Ravelo Jr. – 9-15-59
110. Rubén Rey Alberola – 2-27-59
111. Mario Risquelme – 1-29-59
112. Fernando Rivera – 10-8-59
113. Pablo Rivero- 5-59
114. Manuel Rodríguez – 3-1-59
115. Marcos Rodríguez -7-31-59
116. Nemesio Rodríguez – 7-30-59
117. Pablo Rodriguez – 10-1-59
118. Ricardo Rodriguez – 5-29-59
119. Olegario Rodriguez Fernández-4-23-59
120. José Saldara – 11-9-59
121. Pedro Santana – 2-59
122. Sergio Sierra – 1-9-59
123. Juan Silva – 8-59
124. Fausto Silva – 1-29-59
125. Elpidio Soler- 11-8-59
126. Jseús Sosa Blanco – 2-8-59
127. Renato Sosa- 6-28-59
128. Sergio Sosa – 8-20-59
129. Pedro Soto – 3-20-59
130. Oscar Suárez – 4-30-59
131. Rafael Tarrago – 2-18-59
132. Teodoro Tellez Cisneros- 1-3-59
133. Francisco Tellez-1-3-59
134. José Tin- 1-12-59
135. Francisco Travieso -1959
136. Leonrardo Trujillo – 2-27-59
137. Trujillo - 1959
138. Lupe Valdéz Barbosa – 3-22-59
139. Marcelino Valdéz – 7-21-59
140. Antonio Valentín – 3-22-59
141. Manuel Vázquez-3-22-59
142. Sergio Vázquez-5-29-59
143. Verdecia - 1959
144. Dámaso Zayas -7-23-59
145. José Alvarado -4-22-59
146. Leonoardo Baró- 1-12-59
147. Raúl Concepción Lima - 1959
148. Eladio Caro – 1-4-59
149. Carpintor - 1959
150. Carlos Corvo Martíenz - 1959
151. Juan Guillermo Cossío - 1959
152. Corporal Ortega – 7-11-59
153. Juan Manuel Prieto - 1959
154. Antonio Valdéz Mena – 5-11-59
155. Esteban Lastra – 1-59
156. Juan Felipe Cruz Serafín-6-59**
157. Bonifacio Grasso – 7-59
158. Feliciano Almenares – 12-8-59
159. Antonio Blanco Navarro – 12-10-59**
160. Albeto Carola – 6-5-59
161. Evaristo Guerra- 2-8-59
162. Cristobal Martínez – 1-16-59
163. Pedro Rodríguez – 1-10-59
164. Francisco Trujillo- 2-18-59

Nice man, isn't he?

So I guess there is a lot of mythology regarding Ernesto "Che Guevara"

Saludos

Absurdities? Why? Don't you think is just a different point of view?

"The figure comes from the book by Robert Conquest, The Great Terror: Stalin’s Purge of the Thirties (Macmillan 1968). In his appendix on casualty figures, he reviews a number of estimates of those that were killed under Stalin, and calculates that the number of executions 1936 to 1938 was probably about 1,000,000; that from 1936 to 1950 about 12,000,000 died in the camps; and 3,500,000 died in the 1930-1936 collectivization. Overall, he concludes:
Thus we get a figure of 20 million dead, which is almost certainly too low and might require an increase of 50 percent or so, as the debit balance of the Stalin regime for twenty-three years."


Democratic Peace: How Many Did Stalin Really Murder?

Lenin, letters on Stalin 1924:

" Comrade Stalin, after he had become gensec, concentrated an unbounded power in his hands, and I am not sure if he would be always able to use this power carefully enough" (...)

(...) " I advise comrades to think over the way of replacing Stalin from this post and nominate another person, who is ditinguished from comrade Stalin only by one preponderance, more tolerant , more loyal, more polite and more attentive to comrades, less capricious etc. "

Stalin was simply a son of a w***e.
We still don't know exactly how many were killed by him, 20 millions? 40 millions?
Saludos

Hugo Chávez wrote:
He made plenty of contributions,

Would you please point out some of those contributions?

Hugo Chávez wrote:
His role in the cuban revolution has had a positive impact on millions. The millions who would have lived in poverty,

I don't think so. Do you know cuban people? Did you know that if you need a medical operation in a Cuban hospital, you have to take the sheets from your own house?

Hugo Chávez wrote:
And what about all the people who get top class medical care who otherwise would have died ?

Not so top class Hugo, not so top class. I've met several cubans and for sure what they say about comunisms is not nice at all. There are hundreds of political prisoners. They do not have food, nor medicines, no petrol and right now they don't have all the UISSR support, remember they used to buy the most of the cuban sugar. Have you ever heard about what they call, acto de repudio? It is, more or less, 40 or 50 people in front of the door of your house, insulting you and your family, with nice words as traitors, US agents, contrarevolutionaries........

Cuba is surviving thanks to the venezuelan petrol and the venezuelan people is poor because YOU -I mean Hugo Chávez- is using that petrol for his totalitarian dreams


Saludos

Good Story man, that's interesting. Were they abusive in the prision?

I'm glad you like it man.
Saludos

I've highlighted they key parts that prove my point. He killed enemy combatants and criminals. It would be like my posting a list of people executed when Bush was Governor of Texas and calling him a killer.

__________________
Viva Fidel

"If there ever was in the history of humanity an enemy who was truly universal, an enemy whose acts and moves trouble the entire world, threaten the entire world, attack the entire world in any way or another, that real and really universal enemy is precisely Yankee imperialism"

"North Americans don't understand... that our country is not just Cuba; our country is also humanity"

I thought i already had. His help of the poor and the ill, his role in the revolution brought about the circumstances that have saw millions of lives saved and improved.

That isnt the norm. I dont dispute it will have happened, but its not the norm. I would suggest the people who claim it is are traitors who left the country or pawns of right wing propagandists.

Everything is relative, of course things could always improve, but compared to any country with similar GDP Cuba way outperforms it medically. It even out performs the US on infant mortallity - a smaller ratio of babies die in Cuba than the US. Cuban life expectancy is longer than many first world countries, it is a tremendous achievement.

Both countries help each other. Venezuela doesnt just give away its oil, they trade it with Cuba for medical expertise.

__________________
Viva Fidel

"If there ever was in the history of humanity an enemy who was truly universal, an enemy whose acts and moves trouble the entire world, threaten the entire world, attack the entire world in any way or another, that real and really universal enemy is precisely Yankee imperialism"

"North Americans don't understand... that our country is not just Cuba; our country is also humanity"

Why not just say 100 million?

Look vato loco, we can sit here here all day and cite different sources that place the range of executed people from as little as a 10 thousand to as many as 50 million and it won't change the fact that Stalin and his mummified friend are still relics.