Let's blame the fat people for global warming! - Page 20 - Political Fever

leviathon435 · #**191** (**permalink**) 06-09-2008, 01:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chan

Yes, I know you were but much of what makes something facetious is that it has a grain of truth.

It actually does have more than a grain of truth in this case, you are perfectly right to pull it out and if we were to reduce meat consumption we could make a real dent into the effet of methane on global warming.

leviathon435 · #**192** (**permalink**) 06-09-2008, 01:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xjoe3x

You are correct about the state society thing, I mis-used the terms.

Either way I owe nothing to either though, as society owes nothing to anyone else. It is just a group of individuals interacting. We do not "need" to be in a group to live, that just makes thing easier. No one individual owes anything to society and society owes nothing to an individual.

I still disagree, without society and its inherent protection (aswell as that provided by the state) you would be at the mercy of whoever wanted to take your property, family, or life. There is no immediate threat to you outside of the few criminals within our societies to you because of society as a whole, without it there would be no law, no justice, no equality and no real safety. And even without this argument I feel that as a part of the human species we each have a debt to help each other when in need.

Technocratic_Utilitarian · #**193** (**permalink**) 06-09-2008, 02:42 PM

Saying you don't owe anyone anything doesn't make it true. You simply want it to be the case, and are shirking your duty to society while at the same time selfishly absorbing all th benefits society gives you. Typical libertarian.

xjoe3x · #**194** (**permalink**) 06-09-2008, 05:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by leviathon435

I still disagree, without society and its inherent protection (aswell as that provided by the state) you would be at the mercy of whoever wanted to take your property, family, or life. There is no immediate threat to you outside of the few criminals within our societies to you because of society as a whole, without it there would be no law, no justice, no equality and no real safety. And even without this argument I feel that as a part of the human species we each have a debt to help each other when in need.

As I said I owe nothing to the state because I pay for it. It is like saying I will forever owe brinks security even though I bought there system.

That is why all the individuals that make it up keep it there, they do not owe it.
We do not owe it, we may owe individuals. Why would I have a debt because I am the same species as others?

xjoe3x · #**195** (**permalink**) 06-09-2008, 05:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Technocratic_Utilitarian

Saying you don't owe anyone anything doesn't make it true. You simply want it to be the case, and are shirking your duty to society while at the same time selfishly absorbing all th benefits society gives you. Typical libertarian.

You saying I do does not make it true.

Ya that is it exactly.

I do owe to some, like my parents, but not to society or the state.

You simply want your side to be the case, to be collective you want people to feel some special obligation to others and the government.
I went over why I do not owe to those big collective groups, but to certain individuals I do owe, give up the complete BS about libertarians.

leviathon435 · #**196** (**permalink**) 06-09-2008, 05:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xjoe3x

As I said I owe nothing to the state because I pay for it. It is like saying I will forever owe brinks security even though I bought there system.

I meant more truly the inherent protection in being part of an organised group of people, a society, that obeys the laws of the land to maintain peace and safety.

Quote:

Originally Posted by xjoe3x

That is why all the individuals that make it up keep it there, they do not owe it.
We do not owe it, we may owe individuals. Why would I have a debt because I am the same species as others?

For me a feeling of brotherhood and a willingness to help my fellow human beings is a huge part of my outlook and opinions, and this all stems from the idea that as a human I do owe the rest of the species my help when I can give it. I treat others as I would wish to be treated myself, I'm not saying that you don't of course just that it all forms to give me the idea that I do owe something to society meaning my fellow humans.

xjoe3x · #**197** (**permalink**) 06-09-2008, 05:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by leviathon435

I meant more truly the inherent protection in being part of an organised group of people, a society, that obeys the laws of the land to maintain peace and safety.

For me a feeling of brotherhood and a willingness to help my fellow human beings is a huge part of my outlook and opinions, and this all stems from the idea that as a human I do owe the rest of the species my help when I can give it. I treat others as I would wish to be treated myself, I'm not saying that you don't of course just that it all forms to give me the idea that I do owe something to society meaning my fellow humans.

So... That is just a bunch of individuals getting together for their own benefit. They owe each other nothing, it is just a mutual benefit/agreement.

That is a nice philosophy, but you do not really owe them. You are just being a good guy, which is great. I have done a lot of community service and good things for my neighbors and community, not because I owe them but because it is a nice thing to do.

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