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Enviromental Issues Discuss Environmental Issues here.

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  #11 (permalink)  
Old 05-01-2008, 02:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Oregon Elephant View Post
And I was expecting that from a different user first.
Who ?

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Originally Posted by Oregon Elephant View Post
Funny, you say that higher oil prices encourages others to follow the path of socialism, but the way to correct the issue (according to you) is a capitalist derived method.
Well since we are all (on this board) operating within a capitalist system, capitalist methods are required. If we were in socialist countries i might argue for subsidees, although in reality i wouldn't given the finite nature of this resource.
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They talk about the failure of socialism but where is the success of capitalism in Africa, Asia and Latin America?
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Old 05-01-2008, 02:08 PM
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Well my suggestion would be to nationalise as much as possible, get a socialist government and start trading with Venezuela and other countries. The socialist government will also help in promoting the idea of using less and as you said nationalised oil means profits go to the people. Simple really, if only the "get a socialist government" bit wasn't fraught with difficulties.
A great idea, but i cant imagine governments in the US or UK nationalising Exxon, Shell or BP. It would be nice to see, but never going to happen.
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If there ever was in the history of humanity an enemy who was truly universal, an enemy whose acts and moves trouble the entire world, threaten the entire world, attack the entire world in any way or another, that real and really universal enemy is precisely Yankee imperialism

They talk about the failure of socialism but where is the success of capitalism in Africa, Asia and Latin America?
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  #13 (permalink)  
Old 05-01-2008, 02:08 PM
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Originally Posted by leviathon435 View Post
Well my suggestion would be to nationalise as much as possible, get a socialist government and start trading with Venezuela and other countries. The socialist government will also help in promoting the idea of using less and as you said nationalised oil means profits go to the people. Simple really, if only the "get a socialist government" bit wasn't fraught with difficulties.
How would you plan on nationalizing things and in what way? Some countries in the past have nationalized by taking from private owners with no compensation. With our current level of debt, we can't buy too much from the private owners of oil, otherwise our debt would jump up a lot and hurt the dollar without increasing the global supply.
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Old 05-01-2008, 03:21 PM
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Originally Posted by leviathon435 View Post
Well my suggestion would be to nationalise as much as possible, get a socialist government and start trading with Venezuela and other countries. The socialist government will also help in promoting the idea of using less and as you said nationalised oil means profits go to the people. Simple really, if only the "get a socialist government" bit wasn't fraught with difficulties.
Did you read the article in Post 6? It's socialists who pay more in gas prices than Americans do because of the taxes used to pay for your nanny state.

As long as the oil companies can get away with the price gouging, there's nothing anyone can do to stop it. And as long as the American government's policies keep driving down the value of the American dollar, it's going to get even worse.
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Old 05-01-2008, 03:30 PM
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To be fair though, in those nations with the higher gas costs, the oil is not owned by the state, so it is not the method of which Levi is suggesting.

What would you do to put a stop to the price gouging?
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Old 05-01-2008, 03:32 PM
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What would you do to put a stop to the price gouging?
If I was king of the US, or realistically?
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Old 05-01-2008, 03:34 PM
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If I was king of the US, or realistically?
Either or. If you were in control what would you do? Or, what do you think that our nation needs to do?
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Old 05-01-2008, 03:54 PM
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Either or. If you were in control what would you do? Or, what do you think that our nation needs to do?
Hmm. Well, if I were king, and in full control, I'd pull out of Iraq, and make very public (you know, some epic historymaking speech) announcing a sea-change in American policy, to one of non-interventionism.

Pulling back our overt support of Israel, or at least no different than any other, would go a long way as an overture to the anger and anti-Americanism in the ME. After everyone picked their jaws off the floor, I bet we'd see oil prices drop like a rock. And we'd buy oil from whichever country has the best price (after all, we ARE capitalists, right?), regardless of that nation's policies. We're a big importer, so let's use that to our advantage. We basically need to get the price ball back into our court.

That, in combination with using the money we spend now in Iraq on alternative fuels and whatnot, and go from there. If we're going to piss borrowed money away, it might as well be on the US, not Iraqis.

Simplistic, yes. Unrealistic, yes. But' I think that's what it's going to take.
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Old 05-01-2008, 05:04 PM
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In regards to oil production and sales in the middle east, how do you think us pulling out of Iraq and greatly cutting funding to Israel will effect it? Do you think that after Iraq pulls itself together and gets back on its feet (with whatever government it chooses), it will let bygones be bygones and continue to sell oil to the US? And do you think that after that Venesuela would continue selling with us again?

Actually, Comrade Joe might know that second question better.
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Old 05-01-2008, 05:29 PM
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How would you plan on nationalizing things and in what way? Some countries in the past have nationalized by taking from private owners with no compensation. With our current level of debt, we can't buy too much from the private owners of oil, otherwise our debt would jump up a lot and hurt the dollar without increasing the global supply.
I feel it has to be done legally, I wouldn't propose forcibly taking companies into private ownership without paying for them. To raise this money there are a number of things a government can do, currently I would imagine that your government gives help to the private sector like the bail out of Bear Sterns. This can be stopped, or rather this financial aid can be tied to government ownership, in the manifesto of the labour party for 1974 it said:
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Whenever we give a company direct aid out of public funds we shall in turn reserve the rightto take a share of the ownership of the company.
And in 1973 Harold Wilson said of public aid to the private sector:
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In politics the reach of public responsibility and public money should never exceed the grasp of public control.
Another way to raise the money would be cut military spending, starting with oulling out of Iraq. And if need be tax the rich more and make sure that the rich can't get out of being taxed.

I won't say much about how nationalised industries should be run when they are nationalised but basically it must go on the principle of worker control and worker in-put.
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