So then you should have no problem with a high % since "at the end of the day you look at how much you bring in terms of actual cash" regardless of what the % is.

not just high demand, it the demand to supply ratio (if demand goes up and supply goes up prices remains the same), it is a two varible system. And who controls supply? Part of it is controled by the government, and part is controled by oil corporations, of which they choose to do nothing with land that they lease, so that price drives up without them having to spend money to make money.

Oooo, so close.

But in 2000, Exxon made 4.5 billion in the 2nd quarter, in 2008 it made 11.7 billion (both are after taxes). So, yes, they are, in fact, making more money, even after inflation is considered.

EXXON MOBIL CORP - XOM Quarterly Report (10-Q) Item 1. Financial Statements
XOM: Income Statement for EXXON MOBIL CP - Yahoo! Finance

Except that Exxon (even with these record high profits) is closeing down gas stations, they are not looking for more oil, since they have land that they know has oil but they do not drill, and they only pay taxes on what is profit, everything else is a write off.

In the last quarter (where they made 11.7 billion), they made $390,000 per employee of after tax profit. They made $4,600,000 per employee (in 3 months) on total revenue (before all bills and all taxes). They don't use the 11.7 billion to expand, they use the 51 billion in gross profits (in one quarter) to expand.

Actually, I never made that arguement, but go ahead and shot it down. I said that our GDP can provide 42,000 per individual. I said nothing as to if it should and that we should sustain that number.

Umm, it can bid on new lands (even though they aren't using much of what they already have), they can build new oil rigs, and the can build new pipe lines, and oil tankers (the typical single hull, because an oil spill is cheaper than a fleet of double hulls).

I'm sorry, where does it say that the stock market is safe and risk free and that you'll never lose the money you put in it? And if they invested in a single stock, they've been told before that they are fools, they dug their own retirement grave, diversify people.

No, I have, there is no one that is stupid enough to put their entire retirement in one stock, and if they did, that is their own fault for take obsene risks.

Not true, that only applies when the item in question is one that you can say "no" to. You can not say no to gas for your car, unless you live walking distance to work (less 10% of american works live that close).

Only when government takes control of the entire industry, of which people still have the option to say "no" if it was a free market before. But since they can't say no, it never was a free market with oil.



Oh, I have plans of striping down SS, Medicare, and cleaning up Welfare, but those are different topics, right?

I wouldn't know, since I'm not one.

Well, each of these things should be addressed individually. And that should be done on another thread. Because how I would handle the military has nothing to do with Oil companies. But if you want to know. Yes, I would cut the military substancially. And all the people that were moved, they'd be moved so that they could do something that contributed to society, rather than cost society money to protect it from every little thing.

Unforetunately, you don't know the way that my personal progressive tax would look like. But all in all, you could say that "yes" more would be taxed. But I'd focus more on streamlining government to make it more cost effective, rather than just cutting it up.




Sorry, my mind jumped to Cuba (which is raising at a rate of about 8 - 12 %), my mistake on that. Either way, it does not matter what other nations make in GDP growth (be they 3rd world or 1st world). We only need to focus on our own and not be so competetive that we have to be 1st in everything.

So, we don't have to be.

So, current inflation levels are at 5.6% (for the month of July 2008), we'll end up avg about 5.4% this year. Current population growth rate is 2.3%..That would mean we would have to have a growth rate of 12.42% every year. Our GDP growth was only 2.4% last year. Currently as of today we only have a 1.85% growth rate with a 5.58% inflation rate. Which means we would need a 10.3% economic growth rate in GDP. [/quote]

You did the math wrong. You took 5.4 times 2.3, which gets 12.42. You should take 1.054 * 1.023 = 1.078. We would need 7.8% GDP growth. What that number means, is that after that much inflation and that much population growth, we need 7.8 so that there is still 42,000 USD (in 2007 dollars, inflation taken into account) per person.

My "Plan," which would not sit by and let that kind of inflation run amuck, would be about 5.4% short.


Those are different ways to control inflation, both with their perks and both with their short comings.


Statism is included in Socialist and Communist plans, however it is not exclusive to them. So to say that any statist is also a socialist/communist is a fallacy. I don't support a DoP, nor do I support a single party running the country, nor do I support the state forcifully taking over entire industries.

Never read anything about the "Third Way," any similarities are purely coinsedental. Besides, I hate communism and single party systems.


Because private individuals in real estate in the US were getting their loans from the bank of England (all loans have risks and they choose to take the risk). Not the fault of US government interaction.

Yes, that is what happens when the two nations that you trade most heavily with are at war. There was a bubble created by the market and the government popped it before it got too big and dragged the US into that conflict.


You missed the panic of 1819, which came by entirely as a "correction" from the overgrowth during the war of 1812. A 5 year recession.

Bull, market speculation and fear by the people. They doubted the dollar, and the US pulled it's backing out of the 2nd bank of the US (government was getting out of the market). That caused the value of the dollar to plummet and for a lot of private banks to close. Also, Van Buren is blaimed for do nothing, which allowed the depression to go on for 5 years. Government doing nothing (allowing the free market to work), didn't help a thing.


You missed the Panic of 1857, another "correction" which put us into a 3 year recession.

It pushed it from a gold and silver standard, to a solid gold standard. But you also missed that Jay Cooke and company went out of business, greatly effecting everyone that had loans with them, and the crash of the Austria stock exchange.


You missed 1893, when the Reading Railroad failed and european investors pulled their investments out of US companies, who had spent the money on growth and had nothing to pay it back in, so they had to downsize, leading to another recession.

And 1907 (I can't believe you didn't put that one, because it was what lead to the creation of the federal reserve), came due to people not trusting the banks and their ability to bank the money in their accounts. Causeing a bank run, which they couldn't pay it all back, because much of it was out on loans, so they had to call those in to pay out to the people that they owed money to, and it spiraled.

More due (in the US atleast) to the fact that the war was over and we didn't need all those workers making military arms or any of the like, and many soldiers came back looking for work, so their was high unemployment, with lead to the sharp recession.

You know that started in 1929, right?


You know how it is with the feds and interest rates, either allow inflation or allow unemployment.

The recession only lasted 1 year (90-91), it actually began due to the Black Monday crash (which began in Hong Kong, out of our reach) and spread because people were invested in foriegn markets that caused a domino effect.

Correction after wild speculation on internet based companies.

And you're gonna blaim this all on government? Not the twits that didn't have the IQ to know the risks of ARMs, or the individuals that tried to flip homes and failed? Congress didn't cause the bubble, they gave the market the opportunity to fail and the market jumped all over it.

I found some things that you missed too, though you may want to ignore them.

So what did we learn?

Sometimes the government gets involved in the economy and bad things happen.

Sometimes the government gets involved in the economy and no bad things happen.

Sometimes the government doesn't mess with the free market and bad things happen.

Somtimes the government doesn't mess with the free market and no bad things happen.

That tells you that it is far more complex than just "take government out of it" to fix problems.


There is not enough opportunity in the US for Manufacturing and Production, and the rest have to work to put food on the table. Right now we have less than 1% of the population as farmers, while 100 years ago, over 45% were. We can't do that now because there is not that much need for food.

But he's a twit.

No arguement there.

__________________
Set your destination with your heart, get there with your mind.

"The wisest men follow their own direction." - Euripides

My issue with taxes is the total the Government takes. The higher the %, the more they take.



Demand to Supply ratio, lol... oh geez. Supply never ever keeps up with demand in volume. Pricing comes from Demand and is demand dominated. Always has been.

OPEC controls the supply in OPEC countries (70% of our Oil). So when they decide to cut 200,000 barrels.. that's them driving up the prices. Not Oil Companies. Also, so because they don't drill on those leased lands you think it drives prices up? Do you have any proof that leased land contains oil that isn't already tapped or if there any Oil there?

Some Q and A on this issue.



Whats 4.5 x 22%.. roughly 5.7 billion. What 2 nations in the world have grown the most? China and India. So that effects Global Demand. So the price of Oil goes up. When prices go up, you have a "bigger" profit..

I've never claimed they aren't making more money. But claimed its due to inflation and higher demand. My assertion stands true.




They aren't closing them down, They are selling them off. Sorta like a Bank sells a branch to another Bank.

Also, I suggest reading the Q and A link before you rush to judgment. I have yet to see anyone show evidence that there is enough Oil in these leased areas. They pay for the lease every year. Its why its called a LEASE.

Uh.. you do know gross profits is before Taxes, overhead, payrolls, and interest payments on loans right?

Net profit= is the bottom line. What you have in extra cash.

I could careless what they make on total revenue because its before all of the operating cost. My company makes 25 million but that doesn't mean I can spend that 25 million to expand, as the Company has 15 million operating cost.

See?



Hmm... Why bring up this then? You clearly see it as an important number.




So, how are they going to pay 10 billion bid on the lands, the 1 to 10 billion for the Oil rigs (ocean), how can they build new pipelines that cost 26 billion (which the new Alaska Gas Pipeline cost, completion year around 2018)..



Owning 25 or 30% is diversified. Specially considering the profits that can be made in Oil. But these folks don't have control of their retirement, State Governments do. Kinda like the huge Coin scam that happen in Ohio. A State employee thought it was a good idea to buy coins.






You can say no to Gas. Its just how much your willing to sacrifice. It's still a choice.



When the Government controls it, there is only 1 "corporation" you can buy it from. Currently you can buy from different ones.. Exxon, BP and Shell..



So how did you cut the budget by doing that? You didn't cut it. You just moved one cost to another area.



But I am still right.. You are going to raise taxes.







And you do know that Cuba , decriminalized the use of the US dollar, finally allow private capital investment from foreign entities, their public sector in 1981 was 92%, today is 76%.. it's also growing after a 35% decline in GDP from 1989-1999s.

Cuba has liberalized its Economy. Not put more controls on it.






No, I reject your formula. As we still reached the same conclusion. You say 7.8%... I said 8 to 12%. I tend to be on the safe side when it comes to positive growth for those just in case things.




5.4% is not THAT bad. Inflation has been far worse then that in the last 30 years.





Short coming in Gold Standard is what? You need to keep debt under control?




I said they go hand and hand. Its how far you take your statism that defines you. You clearly are leaning Socialist in this topic.



They aren't. Third Way was common thinking in Europe, as I said Keynes influenced "modern" economics.. you are not proposing anything new to me. I heard it all at College.. and it sure as hell has been in use in the US since FDR.



Read up on the FDR recession.




Read the Legislation. Taxpayer Relief Act of 1997.. Gramm-Leach-Bliley Act..the Fed cut rates from 6.75% to 1.75%.. which allowed folks to get loans who normally wouldn't be able to.

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It is inaccurate to say that I hate everything. I am strongly in favor of common sense, common honesty, and common decency. This makes me forever ineligible for public office.
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come on you know you wanna play football..

Beagán agus a rá go maith.

Economic Left/Right: 3.75
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That is going to be personal opinions for both of us, so I think that it comes down to us just fundementally disagreeing.


You're ignoring the point. The further demand pulls from supply, the higher the prices go, the closer supply gets to demand, the lower the prices drop.

The BLM issued nearly 30,000 permits to drill between 2003 and 2007. These are permits for the actual drilling, after the exploring. Oil companies have only put wells on about 20,000. They have about 10,000 leases of which they haven't done anything, nor have even started to do anything.

Speaker Nancy Pelosi | News Room | Reports

http://www.blm.gov/pgdata/etc/medial...CA2008hi_1.pdf


"They aren't making bigger profits, they are only making "bigger" numbers due to inflation and consumption."

The number's show that they are making bigger profits (in whatever year dollar you want to look at). Even though they are producing less barrels of oil. In 1970, we were producing 9.6 million barrels a day, now we are producing just over 5 million barrels a day. While they have over 10,000 untapped leases and still ask for more.


Right, the Q and A from the API, "API is the only national trade association that represents all aspects of America's oil and natural gas industry. Our 400 corporate members, from the largest major oil company to the smallest of independents, come from all segments of the industry. They are producers, refiners, suppliers, pipeline operators and marine transporters, as well as service and supply companies that support all segments of the industry." They have no reason to be dishonest.

Why would they pay for a lease every year if they knew there was no oil in it? Who is going to pay for something that is useless?

The 51 billion is after the operating cost, but before taxes, it is where they get to spend and write things off. All their taxes come out, after they spend, so if they wish to expand, to lease new land, to hire new employees, that comes from their pre-taxed money, not their net profit.


It is just our GDP/total population. It is another way to look at our nation's produceing rate (how much it produces per person is more usefull that the total produced).


With their profits, but you know that they don't pay it all up front, right? They pay the % that is completed each year. So if it take 20 years to make something that costs 30 billion, they don't pay 30 billion up front, they pay 1.5 billion a year. Remember, I never said that I wish to take all their profits away.


And if this was done (raising the taxes on the oil companies), the state governments (along with private individual brokers) would likely move their investments to other places.



Sure, 90% of people who cannot reach their work anymore can all just file for unemployment and live off the government. Sorry, that is not a logically thing one can say no to. Like saying people can say "no" to air, it just depends on how much they are willing to sacrifice.


Right, that is when government takes control of the entire industry. Is there any reason the government can't just partisipate in the industry with everyone else?


No, the military is a cost, not a profit. So all the people that would no longer be in the military would likely go to work and help build the economy, they would go from a cost to a profit. Instead of taking out tax money, they would be contributing to the tax share, reduceing the load on everyone else.


Yes, some up, some down. But net up. The national debt needs to be elminated.





Because they had too much control, and it was being controled by someone who knew the military, not the economy. It's not an all or nothing thing, either total control or no control.




You can reject the formula if you wish, but it is mathematically accurate. 7.8% to main neutral (no net increase, no net loss). Just so you know, I'd prefer growth, however what is more important than growth is stability.



So, it has been worse, in the last hundred years, Germany saw inflation rates over 10,000% a year. I don't think we should strive to do better than our worse inflation, but strive to keep it as low as possible, regardless of what it was 5 years ago, 10 years ago, 30 years ago. Since inflation hurts investments and hurts the money you have in your bank account.



1873? When we first switched to the gold standard, by eliminating the silver part, which hurt the silver industry.



I haven't even proposed an actual plan yet and you're calling me socialist leaning, because I want to tax oil companies more? It would be liberal leaning, socialism would be to nationalise the oil companies into the government.



Of course I haven't proposed anything new, all I've proposed so far is raising taxes on oil companies. I'm sure everyone has heard that a thousand times by now.


Which "allowed" them to get loans. The people and house flippers are the ones that choose to do so and choose to get ARMs. I'm not saying that it is entirely their fault, since the government shouldn't have passed the TRA in the first place, but the government is not entirely to blaim either since people are responsible for their own actions.

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Set your destination with your heart, get there with your mind.

"The wisest men follow their own direction." - Euripides

Slight off topic, in regards to services don't create capital. They can, however, generate new capital for a nation by providing services for other nations, thus bringing new money into our nation (or whatever nation is providing the service).

__________________
Set your destination with your heart, get there with your mind.

"The wisest men follow their own direction." - Euripides

That's just transferring wealth. It's not generating anything. I.E. IT jobs that use to be in the US are now in India and Ireland. Jobs were removed from the US and shipped overseas.

__________________
Pioneers are walking all around singing songs about Lenin and they should be shot for it.

Handlebars

"If you are looking for the guilty, you need only look into a mirror"- V

It is inaccurate to say that I hate everything. I am strongly in favor of common sense, common honesty, and common decency. This makes me forever ineligible for public office.
H. L. Mencken

come on you know you wanna play football..

Beagán agus a rá go maith.

Economic Left/Right: 3.75
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -2.87

__________________


Defeating market theocrats since 2001.

Right, but it is being transfered to a new nation (from the US to Ireland, thanks Intel), so that is new money going into their economy and not just moving around within their economy.

__________________
Set your destination with your heart, get there with your mind.

"The wisest men follow their own direction." - Euripides

It's not creating any new Capital. It's just transferring it. To create wealth you have to create something new. Not transfer a job from here to there.

__________________
Pioneers are walking all around singing songs about Lenin and they should be shot for it.

Handlebars

"If you are looking for the guilty, you need only look into a mirror"- V

It is inaccurate to say that I hate everything. I am strongly in favor of common sense, common honesty, and common decency. This makes me forever ineligible for public office.
H. L. Mencken

come on you know you wanna play football..

Beagán agus a rá go maith.

Economic Left/Right: 3.75
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -2.87