Even when we had the gold standard, we still had inflation, he have never been able to stop inflation, limit it yes, but stop it, no. Because it can't fully be controled.


I disagree, the rise of the dollar was helped greatly by the fall of oil. If world events effect oil supply and demand and cause the price of oil to increase, that will stop the success of the dollar.


357,700, but you are only looking at federal taxes, my mother pays state taxes aswell. Her total tax load is 42% (state and federal)

22,500,000,000 / 10,500,000,000 = 46.7% (total taxes paid)

my mother = 42% (total taxes paid)

I think that those % are pretty close, then when you consider that one make 500,000 times more...

__________________
Set your destination with your heart, get there with your mind.

"The wisest men follow their own direction." - Euripides

We'll discuss this in another topic..




And you don't think Companies don't pay State and Local taxes as well?




Again.. why are you ignoring the basics in math? 500,000 times more means they also pay 500,000 times more in taxes. So how can you justify the %.. and not the total in the amount paid?

__________________
Pioneers are walking all around singing songs about Lenin and they should be shot for it.

Handlebars

"If you are looking for the guilty, you need only look into a mirror"- V

It is inaccurate to say that I hate everything. I am strongly in favor of common sense, common honesty, and common decency. This makes me forever ineligible for public office.
H. L. Mencken

come on you know you wanna play football..

Beagán agus a rá go maith.

Economic Left/Right: 3.75
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -2.87

Give me some time to brush up on it, otherwise it probably won't be too much of a debate for you.


Did I say that? You said that she would have to make 350,000 to pay 38%, though that 38% is only federal tax and doesn't take into consideration the state and local taxes. Exxon, last quarter paid 46.7% in total taxes, my mother paid 42% in total taxes, what dollars went to the feds and what dollars went to the state don't matter in this comparison.


Because I believe in the more you make, the higher % you pay. I didn't ignore any math. Just like I fully believe and expect my mother to pay a higher % than someone making minimum wage, I fully believe the oil company should pay a higher % than my mother.

__________________
Set your destination with your heart, get there with your mind.

"The wisest men follow their own direction." - Euripides

I am giving you time to read up on it.. start with Fiat currency.





And they are, are they not? They are paying what you are asking.. They aren't just paying 120,000.. but in the figure of 11,200,000,000. So doesn't that make your outrage more of jealousy instead of rational thinking?

__________________
Pioneers are walking all around singing songs about Lenin and they should be shot for it.

Handlebars

"If you are looking for the guilty, you need only look into a mirror"- V

It is inaccurate to say that I hate everything. I am strongly in favor of common sense, common honesty, and common decency. This makes me forever ineligible for public office.
H. L. Mencken

come on you know you wanna play football..

Beagán agus a rá go maith.

Economic Left/Right: 3.75
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -2.87

[/quote]

Not high enough for my tastes (notice I was speaking in regards to %, not total). It's not jealously, since I don't want to make that much (since jealously is hating others for having what you want). I don't hate them. Their is a certain amount that the government needs to run programs (the support of individual programs varies from program to program and I do not support everything the government wastes money on), and it gather money to fund those programs the government taxes the people and businesses. Those that have the financial ability to pay more should pay more, so that those that are financially weak, don't have to pay as much. I strong should help the weak, not just watch them suffer and say "I'm doing my part" when they have the strength to help out.

__________________
Set your destination with your heart, get there with your mind.

"The wisest men follow their own direction." - Euripides

For your taste? So a company which is not an individual, but is made up of individuals should have to pay more because Consumers buy it's product?

How in the hell is that Logical? Considering Companies provide jobs to people like your mother, you, and everyone else. Isn't the point of what you want is to allow people earn more, work less and have a decent living? So how is taxing their place of work more helpful to the situation knowing companies will not hire more people, will not do R&D, will not provide health care, and certainly won't stay in this country..

Look at the growing economies of the world, and their corporate tax rates.. now take a look at our tax rate and our declining economy.. Putting a tax rate at 25% for Corporate Taxes would be inline with 90% of the world considering we currently have the highest corporate tax rate in the world.

__________________
Pioneers are walking all around singing songs about Lenin and they should be shot for it.

Handlebars

"If you are looking for the guilty, you need only look into a mirror"- V

It is inaccurate to say that I hate everything. I am strongly in favor of common sense, common honesty, and common decency. This makes me forever ineligible for public office.
H. L. Mencken

come on you know you wanna play football..

Beagán agus a rá go maith.

Economic Left/Right: 3.75
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -2.87

No, it should have to pay more because it makes more.

They are taxed after employees are paid, and after they make their investments (at least the oil companies are). So there is no insentive for them not to make jobs, in fact there is more incentive to spend that money on employees rather than taxes (which is what many did, paying them to their upper management and exes). Also, as the money goes to a growing government, the government provides jobs (with much better benefits) to far more individuals.


The economy doesn't have to be the fastest growing in the world, our economy already produces enough $42,000 for each individual in the US (including the elderly and children). We don't need growth, we need to control the economy and prevent it from fluctuating so violently (as it often did before the government did hardly any control).

__________________
Set your destination with your heart, get there with your mind.

"The wisest men follow their own direction." - Euripides

It does get taxed more does it not? You saying paying 11 billion in taxes is not being taxed enough.. Yet 1 company is paying 28% of the taxes that comes from Corporate Taxes. But moving on..



This is so wrong. They can only deduct what they can prove as a business expense for that year. So next year before tax season comes, A company needs money on hand to pay for new employees before they can deducted the salary at the end of the year.

Example.. you made 100,000 in profit and are looking to hire a new employee to expand your business. That future employee can not be claimed until Salary is actually given. So you have to use your profit until tax season to pay that person, then when tax season comes you can claim that salary as a deductible. So you are actually using your profit to hire, provide health care and education for an employee out of your own pocket.. (well you are still doing it out of your own pocket, it's just not taxable when tax season comes.)

You have to have Cash on hand to create jobs. Every 2 weeks, I gotta have 2 bank accounts with 100,000 in each to pay the employees where I work. No matter what. I have to use profit from each month to pay these employees. Only at the end of the year can I claim a deductible for those Salaries, so I am not charged for money others made and I lost.

Now, paying it to the upper management or CEOs, CFOs, and all the others.. doesn't matter. As its a transfer of profit to another, thus taxable income for Management and the Company Exs. The "profit" is still being taxed.

I.E. I can give myself a $1 million bonus, but at tax season, I am still going to have to pay taxes on that bonus.



Ah, yes, your lovely Statist attitude. Do you understand who does most of the work for the Government now? CONTRACTORS.. folks like Blackwater, Halliburton, SAIC, Carlyle Group and so on. These folks work on Cost Plus contracts. Meaning they get paid for what it costs, the get a % of profit for it. So something that could be made by the Government for 100 million, will end up cost the tax payers 150 million.

By the increasing the size of the Government means increasing the size of the National Debt. It makes absolutely no sense to increase the size of the Government so you can tax those Government employees more.






We don't need growth? So when we are enconomically growing at a rate of 1% or have no or loss of growth.. but our population keeps growing at 2% per year.. are you going to be singing the same tune? Probably not.. Since the Soviet Union tried the same thing and we know what happen to that.

Over time that $42,000 will become less and less under your statist/communist/socialist plan.

The Government has caused the economy to fluctuate.. It always has. From Tariff of 1842, Smoot-Hawley Tariff Act, Savings & Loan, and the housing bubble.. of these things happened because the Government passed laws to push or manage the economy.

You should read this.. its a very good read.

__________________
Pioneers are walking all around singing songs about Lenin and they should be shot for it.

Handlebars

"If you are looking for the guilty, you need only look into a mirror"- V

It is inaccurate to say that I hate everything. I am strongly in favor of common sense, common honesty, and common decency. This makes me forever ineligible for public office.
H. L. Mencken

come on you know you wanna play football..

Beagán agus a rá go maith.

Economic Left/Right: 3.75
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -2.87

How many times have I said % in regards to them? No, when someone makes 22.5 billion, 10.5 billion is not enough.


That amount that they need is pathetically small compared to how much they make. Last quarter they profited 22.5 billion, they could add 2 million employees with that profit (at $10,000 per quarter, or $40,000 a year), which is 60 times their current work force. For new employees they only financially need several hundred million dollars, and I wouldn't propose a tax so high that they couldn't meet that.



So does oil, everyone works on a cost plus model, that's called profit. Oil does it, automotive does it, food does it, government contracters do it. So it is no different that the oil company, only it is done by government, so why would you have a problem with it?

Wrong, that is only if the size of government is increased without balancing it. And obvisously one wouldn't increase government size in order to tax more. Government size is increased to provide the needed services of the people (though the word "needed" is subjective, since what you see as "needed" is different from what I see as "needed"), and taxes are a biproduct, not a reason.


Gowth compared to 3rd world nations in meaningless (as you compared them earlier). It doesn't matter what other nations are growing at, we don't have to be 1st or even in the top ten. As long as our growth out does our inflation times population growth, (1+inflation%)*(1+population growth%). Which as ZPG is reached, just inflation is needed to worry about (which you said is easy to control, right?).

don't go red scare on me. If you think that I'm socialist or communist, then you don't know me aswell as I thought you did.

Not really, the birth of big government in the US was with FDR in the 30's since then we have not have a single depression, unlike the 130 years before FDR and his big government, 30 years were spent in Depressions (and none after), and many more in ressions. In the first 156 years of this nation (1776 - 1932), 64 years were in a recession (4 out of every 10). Afterwards (1933 - today), only 15 years have been recessions (2 out of every 10), and the recessions averaged much less in total length (being usually only 1 or 2 years long, while earlier recessions lasted usually about 6 years long).

I read the original Credo back in high school, but I still went over this. It's nearly as bad as the communist manefesto (though not quite).

__________________
Set your destination with your heart, get there with your mind.

"The wisest men follow their own direction." - Euripides

And how many times have I told you % doesn't matter. At the end of the day you look at how much you bring in terms of actual cash.






Do you work in the oil industry? Didn't think so. So how are you suppose to say what is needed and not needed? Remember, 8 years ago they weren't making that kind of profit. They are only making a profit because of a weaker dollar and higher demand. I.E. Market Forces.

We'll use the dollar as a starting point for me to explain this to you.

In 2000 a dollar = $1.00. Today a Dollar in 2000 = .80

22 billion today only matches 17.5 Billion in 2000. That means the profits from Oil companies are due to inflation at the rate of 2.83% a year (or 22.64% over 8 years) .

They aren't making bigger profits, they are only making "bigger" numbers due to inflation and consumption.

No, they couldn't. They have to pay leasing fees, buy oil on the market, refine, run gas stations, find more oil and on top of that PAY TAXES.

Also, this negates your earlier argument to the point of our economy can sustain paying everyone $42,000... you are short changing 2 million people.

Really? So what are those new employees going to do when Oil company can't bid on those new leases the Government are selling? Build new Oil rigs?, Build new pipelines to transport oil to ports for shipping? To building new Oil tankers?

How are those folks who own mutual funds or oil company stocks and are looking to them for a nest egg for retirement going to recoup there money?
Are you going to tell State Governments such as Ohio, California, Texas, Pennsylvania, and Florida that too bad for you when 25 to 30% of their retirement funds for State employees disappear overnight?

You clearly aren't thinking these things through.







Private Business does that at the mercy of the consumer. If prices go to high they can reject buying the product. See Free Market.

When a Government does it, there is not Fair or Free about the Market. Government doesn't rely on people and their free will. Government FORCES it.



How are you going to Balance the Budget, OE? Remember we have in the near future 1 trillion dollars going to Social Security, Medicare, and Welfare in the next few years (that's 33% of the Budget), and this doesn't even account for future population growth but past population growth.

Really? Wonder if Democrats know that?

Ah, yes, services. So what are you going to do? Cut Military spending by cutting the size of the Military? But even that doesn't solve your problem because those Military personal are going to end up in another Government "sponsored" service. So that's a push. You going to cut Education? Oh wait, that "has" to be another Government service right? What about HUD, are you going to cut that? Probably not, because its a "needed" service. What are you going to cut to balance the budget?

You can't balance the Budget without raising taxes and its the dirty "secret". You call it a biproduct, I call it the goal. The more you tax, the more you control the population in what they can or can't do. You are taking money out of the hands of individuals and throwing it into this collectivist pot which they may never see a dime of taxes they paid. At the same time you are controlling the things they can do and pushing them more and more to rely on the State...... This will be continued in 2 paragraphs.







I actually was comparing them to those with in Europe. Say like Ireland which goes at the rate of 5-8% since 1993. Raising their per capita past the US at $45,000.

Emerging Markets are not 3rd world.

We currently aren't even in the top per capita.

So, current inflation levels are at 5.6% (for the month of July 2008), we'll end up avg about 5.4% this year. Current population growth rate is 2.3%..That would mean we would have to have a growth rate of 12.42% every year. Our GDP growth was only 2.4% last year. Currently as of today we only have a 1.85% growth rate with a 5.58% inflation rate. Which means we would need a 10.3% economic growth rate in GDP.

Your plan is well short of what is needed, anywhere from 8 to 10%.

Now, Inflation is easy to cure, but to cure it, you slow down the economy. You only see growth rates at 2 or 3% with a Fiat Currency on top of that you have very high interest rates, somewhere between 8 and 10%. Which means people and business will pay more for loans.

If you go to the Gold Standard, you peg the currency to Gold. Thus inflation is non existent. As you can only print money to the rate of the amount of gold the Government owns. Like 100 dollars to 1oz of Gold, a 100 to 1 ratio. even 800 to 1 is about normal now. But you reject this.



I am not, I am going on facts. Statism is very much a part of the Socialist and Communist plan. You can call yourself a Statist all want. But, States controlling the economy and providing the "needs" is a Socialist idea and the Communist end up staying in the Statist mind frame when they gain power.

What you are arguing are prime examples of Third Way.. Fabian Society used these ideas. Tony Blair and Gordon Brown are members of this "Society". These folks are Socialist.

Keynesian economics is based around this.

The idea of the Third Way is to bring Capitalism into Socialism, then Socialism into Communism.




LMAO.. And lets go through the list of Recessions and "Depressions" since 1787 (when the United States under the US Constitution was founded)..

1797= deflation of the Bank of England due to War, spread through Europe and the US. (so, it was an inflationary problem in the UK)

1807= The Embargo Act of 1807 was passed by the US Congress. (So Government got involved in the Economy)

1837= Currency issues due to Governmental Debt.

1873= European economic problems (This also covers the Long Depression), and the passage of the Coinage Act of 1873 by Congress pushing the value of Silver down hurting the mining industry.

1918= Hyperinflation caused by WW1 and Governmental Debt.

1937= FDR's shining moment..
_________________________________________

After FDR

1973-1981= Oil Embargo (out of our hands). Hyperinflation due to Iranian Revolution, Inflation caused by the Fed lowering Interest rates.

1987-1992= Savings and Loan due to Congress passing Garn-St. Germain Depository Institutions Act of 1982.

2000-2002= Dot com Bubble..

1997-????= Housing Bubble caused by Congress passing laws like the Taxpayer Relief Act of 1997, which allowed folks under the age of 55 to use a one time capital gain exemption on homes. In came the idea of ARMs and short term house buying to flip the homes.. driving up housing prices.

Hmm.. When I look at the list of these events, I see a few things, that you may want to ignore. Laws being passed by Congress A) either causing them or B) prolonging it.

The economy of the US from 1787 - 1970s is very different then 1970's to today. We haven't had any real economic growth, as Manufacturing and Production creates wealth. Not service side jobs.. 70% of the jobs in the United States are service side, Managerial, or professional. These jobs do not create Capital.

Capital is created by Production and Land (farming is .6% in the US). Tho Karl Marx argues other wise.

Service side is just transferring Capital from 1 person to another. It only increases when there is Real Capital (Production and Land) increase or when the Fed increase the amount of currency in market. When the Fed does this, it creates inflation. They have been doing this since 1971 every day of the week.

So when the Fed pumps 30 billion dollars into Banks to keep them afloat they are increasing inflation and devaluing real capital. When the Government decides to bail out the home owners, it will cause more inflation driving down real capital.

These events are negative to the economy as a whole.

__________________
Pioneers are walking all around singing songs about Lenin and they should be shot for it.

Handlebars

"If you are looking for the guilty, you need only look into a mirror"- V

It is inaccurate to say that I hate everything. I am strongly in favor of common sense, common honesty, and common decency. This makes me forever ineligible for public office.
H. L. Mencken

come on you know you wanna play football..

Beagán agus a rá go maith.

Economic Left/Right: 3.75
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -2.87