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  #21 (permalink)  
Old 05-09-2008, 07:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael View Post
Gas price hikes driven by California refinery shutdowns

The Raw Story | Gas price hikes driven by California refinery shutdowns

It is the old Enron tactic of shutting down facilities for alleged repairs inorder to drive the prices upward. The free market capitalism argument to promote the oil industry's cause does not cover price gouging tactics.

And what this information doesn't mention is that there was a proposal to eliminate all subsidies to oil corportations that were breaking all records for profits when the last Energy Bill was passed. The Senate Republicans lined up to block this. Then if you check the campaign contributions that got these guys elected, guess who is bribing them for their votes.

Senate Republicans have proven themselves to be corporate prostitutes. They all need to be voted out of office so the status quo of Bush Republicans selling out the federal government wholesale to billionaire corporations stops.

The subsidies need to be eliminated. The arguments here for the oil companies based on free market capitalism does not cover subsidies and tax breaks. They are also drilling on public lands and paying NO lease.

And previously I mentioned the fact that Exxon quit paying for the Valdeze oil spill and taxpayers had to foot most of the bill while their lawyers (legal prostitutes money could buy) tied up law suits for damages in court for 20 years.
As long as people keep voting for Democrats and Republicans, it's going to be nothing but status quo for the foreseeable future.
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Old 05-09-2008, 11:31 AM
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Each party sucks up to their own set of billionaire corporations. For Republicans, it is clearly oil. For Democrats, it has been the billionaire AgriCorps, the same people that got a mandate to replace MTBE with ethanol while at the same time getting subsidies for the cost and pollution inefficient corn ethanol production.
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Old 05-09-2008, 11:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oregon Elephant View Post
You can't pick your two kids up on a bike
That depends on the bike.

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, or on public transportation,
My city's school district contracts out with the public transportation to get kids to and from school. The kids get on or off at regular bus stops (or the train stations for the metro rail).

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and if their school happens to be 3 miles from where you live, driving becomes a requirement (since truency is against the law). You can't just tell people to live closer, since there is no room closer.
In a number of communities, living even 1.5 miles from the school makes the kids eligible to ride the school bus.
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"Why?" asks the confused waiter, as the panda makes toward the exit. The panda produces a badly punctuated wildlife manual and tosses it over his shoulder.

"I'm a panda," he says at the door. "Look it up."

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"Panda. Large black-and-white bear-like mammal, native to China. Eats, shoots and leaves."

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  #24 (permalink)  
Old 05-09-2008, 11:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Space_Coyote View Post
There isn't a monopoly or trust within the oil industry. It's not even oligopolous if we take Russia, Norway, and Canada into account. Price speculation IS a part of the free market; free markets are characterized by two people seeking to maximize gain while minimizing expenditure, it's idea #1.
That is done through the balance of supply and demand, price speculation is used to lie about the demand and make it appear that the demand is different than what it really is (in this case, higher) in order to adjust the price away from the free market price. Ergo, we are adjusted away from the free market price and so not in a free market.

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There exists a myriad of ways to cut costs to make gasoline more affordable. I cook all of my own food (it's cheaper and better for you), don't have any debt, and drive fuel-efficient vehicles. Cutting consumption is easy, you're just looking for reasons why it can't be done.
How does cooking your own food and having no debt reduce your need for gasoline?

I do all of those too (for the most part, I still have a student loan, but that's almost gone, be debt free by this summer). There is still a baseline of fuel that you need to use to get to and from work each day, to and from the grocery store. You can only save so much before you hit a wall.

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I went to high school a little over three miles from home and walked there almost everyday until I turned 16 and bought my first car (parents or brother would drive me on rainey or REALLY cold days), it's not hard. If you've got young'uns, get a more fuel efficient car than your $35k SUV, like a $5k used Civic or older Camry. The only people really economically HURT by rising gas prices are people up to their asses in debt, driving useless cars, and purposely acting irresponsibly. Gas is a commodity to be sold, and when consumption goes up, so does price. If you want the price to come down, tell your Congressman to allow for private drilling in ANWAR.
Actually, the people most hurt are those that make minimum wage, that can't afford that 35k car and are driving in a $500 1988 toyota (because that's all they can afford).


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Nope, the oil industry is not oligopolous. No trust exists within the global market, only within a select few companies with whom the bulk of Americans do business. Don't like it? Buy from somebody else, the little hole in the wall station probably gets its gas from Canada like oh so many others.
The nearest station to me (that gets it's gas not from US or Britian) is 13 miles from where I live, and not on the way to work.

Quote:
They are the producers, and in a free market a combination of producer desire and consumer desire create market price. You're confusing what you WANT oil to cost with what it SHOULD cost, and I'm sorry but the days of getting everything we want for nothing are over. Prices increasing given increased demand for a resource is a NORMAL occurence in the free-market and will be resolved when Americans start discussing what CAN be done instead of sitting around whining about how unfair life can be.
Yes it is, in a free market, too bad this isn't. Gas consumption drops in fall and winter (with a spike at thanksgiving and christmas), so by the free market, the price should also drop. This year, the prices dropped during summer (when consumption was high), took off in fall (when consuption was low), dropped again in the time between TG and Christmas (when it should have shot up momentarily), than took off again through winter (when it should be at it's lowest of the year). That shows very clearly that the price of gas is not following consumption in the least and is not being dictated by the free market.
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Old 05-09-2008, 11:53 AM
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So when have you not see gas stations all over town not within 2 to 5 cents of each other in prices?
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Old 05-09-2008, 11:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael View Post
So when have you not see gas stations all over town not within 2 to 5 cents of each other in prices?
In some places it is supposedly the law that they have to keep their prices within a certain number of cents of each other.
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A panda walks into a cafe. He orders a sandwich, eats it, then draws a gun and fires two shots in the air.

"Why?" asks the confused waiter, as the panda makes toward the exit. The panda produces a badly punctuated wildlife manual and tosses it over his shoulder.

"I'm a panda," he says at the door. "Look it up."

The waiter turns to the relevant entry and, sure enough, finds an explanation.

"Panda. Large black-and-white bear-like mammal, native to China. Eats, shoots and leaves."

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  #27 (permalink)  
Old 05-09-2008, 12:00 PM
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When I can, I try to make to Costco (only 6 miles past my work), their prices are usually about 15 cents cheaper, but so many people use it that you burn that much gas just waiting in line.
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Old 05-09-2008, 03:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oregon Elephant View Post
That is done through the balance of supply and demand, price speculation is used to lie about the demand and make it appear that the demand is different than what it really is (in this case, higher) in order to adjust the price away from the free market price. Ergo, we are adjusted away from the free market price and so not in a free market.
Price speculation is used in all sectors of the economy to SPUR demand in addition to raise prices, it is an element of the free market. It doesn't just measure demand, it also analyzes supply.


Quote:
How does cooking your own food and having no debt reduce your need for gasoline?

I do all of those too (for the most part, I still have a student loan, but that's almost gone, be debt free by this summer). There is still a baseline of fuel that you need to use to get to and from work each day, to and from the grocery store. You can only save so much before you hit a wall.
Right, you need gasoline, you don't need credit cards, a big screen tv, or a fancy car, and A LOT of people making $35k a year have all of those things. Do the math on this:

Gas is $2 a gallon, you have 16 gallons in your sedan's tank = $32
Gas is $3 a gallon, you have 16 gallons in your sedan's tank = $48
Gas is $4 a gallon, you have 16 gallons in your sedan's tank = $64

Assuming you fill up once a week, the monthly price hike from $2 to $4 a gallon is $128. If you can't come up with $128 a month, you're doing something wrong. Higher gas prices irritate me just like the next guy, I like paying low prices, but it's something you need and certainly you can cut $128 from your budget to apply to gas. If you can't afford $128, it's time to get a second job or find a better first one.


Quote:
Actually, the people most hurt are those that make minimum wage, that can't afford that 35k car and are driving in a $500 1988 toyota (because that's all they can afford).
The people making minimum wage also have the hourly flexibility to take on a second job, and can take public transit or walk. I lived well below the poverty line in college (I pretty much lived on rice and ramen), I managed to get to work and pay my bills....while going to five classes a semester, what's stopping other people? People must take responsibility for their actions and FIND A WAY TO SURVIVE, it's not hard if you play it smart. Made bad choices? ACCEPT THE CONSEQUENCES and MOVE ON.



Quote:
The nearest station to me (that gets it's gas not from US or Britian) is 13 miles from where I live, and not on the way to work.
And you choose to live where you live, there are alternatives, you simply didn't choose to exploit them.


Quote:
Yes it is, in a free market, too bad this isn't. Gas consumption drops in fall and winter (with a spike at thanksgiving and christmas), so by the free market, the price should also drop.
That was true before global demand spiked as a result of Chinese, Indian, and South Korean modernization, now when America slows its consumption, those countries pick up the slack. You can't blame companies for selling their products, it's sort of their job.

Quote:
This year, the prices dropped during summer (when consumption was high), took off in fall (when consuption was low), dropped again in the time between TG and Christmas (when it should have shot up momentarily), than took off again through winter (when it should be at it's lowest of the year). That shows very clearly that the price of gas is not following consumption in the least and is not being dictated by the free market.
You don't live in an insular economy anymore, you have to consider GLOBAL demand and GLOBAL pricing. Life's tough, but you've got to learn to survive. Americans have become fat and complacent and we've been overtaken in manufacturing and raw material exports. Our workers are overpaid because we've all got this idea in our heads that EVERYBODY should be rich, and that simply isn't possible. You're trying to defend a system that is indefensible using economic analysis that hasn't been in use since that idiot Stiglitz won the Nobel Prize.
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Old 05-09-2008, 04:00 PM
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And you choose to live where you live, there are alternatives, you simply didn't choose to exploit them.
Oh, puh-leeze! Everyone's "alternatives" are limited by what one can afford. Also, when you own a house, it isn't as easy to just pick up and move when circumstances change. My office is being moved within the year, which will double my commuting time. As long as the housing market remains as stagnant as it is now, my ability to move to be closer to the new office is likely to be iffy.

A consumer's alleged freedom is sometimes an illusion.
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Old 05-09-2008, 04:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Space_Coyote View Post
Price speculation is used in all sectors of the economy to SPUR demand in addition to raise prices, it is an element of the free market. It doesn't just measure demand, it also analyzes supply.
When used properly, not when exploited.

Quote:
Right, you need gasoline, you don't need credit cards, a big screen tv, or a fancy car, and A LOT of people making $35k a year have all of those things. Do the math on this:

Gas is $2 a gallon, you have 16 gallons in your sedan's tank = $32
Gas is $3 a gallon, you have 16 gallons in your sedan's tank = $48
Gas is $4 a gallon, you have 16 gallons in your sedan's tank = $64

Assuming you fill up once a week, the monthly price hike from $2 to $4 a gallon is $128. If you can't come up with $128 a month, you're doing something wrong. Higher gas prices irritate me just like the next guy, I like paying low prices, but it's something you need and certainly you can cut $128 from your budget to apply to gas. If you can't afford $128, it's time to get a second job or find a better first one.

The people making minimum wage also have the hourly flexibility to take on a second job, and can take public transit or walk. I lived well below the poverty line in college (I pretty much lived on rice and ramen), I managed to get to work and pay my bills....while going to five classes a semester, what's stopping other people? People must take responsibility for their actions and FIND A WAY TO SURVIVE, it's not hard if you play it smart. Made bad choices? ACCEPT THE CONSEQUENCES and MOVE ON.

And you choose to live where you live, there are alternatives, you simply didn't choose to exploit them.
You're makeing a lot of assumptions about the poorer people. Many of the poor have kids, so they can't work 16 hours a day. They are finding a way to survive, by voting, making a difference, and making the oil companies stop gauging prices. They are trying to change the world, or do you feel that is shooting to high and they should just accept the world and change themselves instead?

As for me, I can't live any closer to my work, I don't have the money for the nice side of town and those fancy homes. But I managed to get lucky enough to get a job over there.

Quote:
That was true before global demand spiked as a result of Chinese, Indian, and South Korean modernization, now when America slows its consumption, those countries pick up the slack. You can't blame companies for selling their products, it's sort of their job.
I don't think I even need to be in this debate, you are argueing against yourself. You began with saying that we should stop complaining and if we want the price to go down we need to stop consuming, now you shoot your own argument by saying "when America slows its consumption, those countries pick up the slack."

All the nations have the same consumption pattern. Unless the countries in the southern hemisphere began using a heck of a lot of oil (as their summer is our winter, so their driving season is our off-driving season), then those other countries are not picking up the slack. The price is going up even though demand goes down. That's not free trade, that's price gouging.

Quote:
You don't live in an insular economy anymore, you have to consider GLOBAL demand and GLOBAL pricing. Life's tough, but you've got to learn to survive. Americans have become fat and complacent and we've been overtaken in manufacturing and raw material exports. Our workers are overpaid because we've all got this idea in our heads that EVERYBODY should be rich, and that simply isn't possible. You're trying to defend a system that is indefensible using economic analysis that hasn't been in use since that idiot Stiglitz won the Nobel Prize.
What are you talking about?
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