Bush administration plan to ban contraceptives - Page 4 - Political Fever

Southern Man · #31 (**permalink**) 07-22-2008, 08:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chan

I really wish that if you people are going to disagree with me that you disagree with what I said instead of with what you presume to be my views. ....

Welcome to Liberal Debate 101: Create a strawman and demonize your opponent.

AnnEsthesia · #32 (**permalink**) 07-22-2008, 10:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chan

I really wish that if you people are going to disagree with me that you disagree with what I said instead of with what you presume to be my views. You've assumed that I agree with the legislation discussed in the original post; you've assumed that I think it's a woman's fault if she gets raped (though I haven't said anything about rape at all).

Now, if you're going to disagree with me GET IT RIGHT!!! You are most likely to do this by simply reading the words that are written instead of reading into them. The only thing between the lines is empty space. Everything you need to know is in the words that are written.

What all this comes down to is people trying to escape the consequences of their actions and it is this escaping of consequences that I oppose. Evil people or children (these two are not the same) try to escape the consequences of their actions. Good people or mature adults (these two are not the same) make their choices and gladly accept the consequences of their choices. As for the legislation discussed in the original post, I oppose government getting involved. The government has no business legislating what substances people may ingest, what medications doctors may prescribe or what medical procedures people may choose to receive.

Again, damn it, if you're going to disagree with me GET IT RIGHT!

You are the one stating that women should not have sex if they are not willing to accept the consequences. You state that any woman who "lets a horny bastard between her legs" should accept the consequences.

So you are willing to only have sex when you are trying to have children? I sure as hell am not. I have two kids and now I am done. I am not willing to spend the majority of my life sexless just because you have some issues with sex. Birth control allows me to have a healthy and happy marriage. Deal with it.

Skerlnik · #33 (**permalink**) 07-22-2008, 10:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chan

If they don't want to have babies then they have no business letting some horny bastard penetrate them. It really is just that simple.

What about the above quote have we all misinterpreted?

Maybe you can clarify, because it sure appears that you are shifting all blame and responsibility onto women, here, without qualification.

The point everyone's trying to make is that expecting/demanding that everyone just simply not have sex unless procreation is desired is a laughably willful denial of fundamental human nature.

You want people to be responsible, and then advocate outlawing the means and technology to do just that. Using birth control is the very definition of taking responsibility.

Chan · #34 (**permalink**) 07-22-2008, 12:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AnnEsthesia

You are the one stating that women should not have sex if they are not willing to accept the consequences.

Absolutely! If you're not prepared to accept the consequences of your actions then you shouldn't engage in those actions. That's true of anyone.

Quote:

You state that any woman who "lets a horny bastard between her legs" should accept the consequences.

Yes! You women talk about wanting to control what happens to your bodies (the false excuse used to justify murdering unborn children); what I'm suggesting is that you exercise that control over your bodies before letting the horse out of the barn.

Quote:

So you are willing to only have sex when you are trying to have children? I sure as hell am not. I have two kids and now I am done. I am not willing to spend the majority of my life sexless just because you have some issues with sex. Birth control allows me to have a healthy and happy marriage. Deal with it.

No, birth control allows you to escape the consequences of your choices.

But bringing this back on topic, I don't want the government involved in any way whatsoever. The government has no business legislating what substances people may ingest, what drugs doctors can prescribe or what medical treatment people can receive.

Skerlnik · #35 (**permalink**) 07-22-2008, 12:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chan

But bringing this back on topic, I don't want the government involved in any way whatsoever. The government has no business legislating what substances people may ingest, what drugs doctors can prescribe or what medical treatment people can receive.

I agree with that, with the amendment that the government's job is to ensure access to all the options, so that choices can be made.

If people wish to pretend it's still 1740, they may do so.

Chan · #36 (**permalink**) 07-22-2008, 12:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skerlnik

What about the above quote have we all misinterpreted?

It isn't just the above quote and you know it!

Quote:

Maybe you can clarify, because it sure appears that you are shifting all blame and responsibility onto women, here, without qualification.

But that isn't the extent of what you and others are wrongly presuming to be my position. You're assuming I support the legislation. You're assuming that I'm saying it's a woman's fault if she gets raped. What I'm saying, very simply, is that people need to accept the consequences of their choices instead of trying to escape those consequences.

Quote:

The point everyone's trying to make is that expecting/demanding that everyone just simply not have sex unless procreation is desired is a laughably willful denial of fundamental human nature.

First of all, that isn't what I'm "demanding" and, second, one of the signs of maturity is the ability to rule one's nature instead of being ruled by it. Again, I expect people to bear the consequences of their choices instead of trying to escape those consequences.

Quote:

You want people to be responsible, and then advocate outlawing the means and technology to do just that. Using birth control is the very definition of taking responsibility.

Yes, I most certainly do expect people to be responsible! But you again wrongly assume that I support the legislation that is the subject of this thread and this is why I'm saying that if you're going to disagree with me then you damned well had better get it right. Birth control is not taking responsibilty, it's trying to escape the consequences of one's choices.

Chan · #37 (**permalink**) 07-22-2008, 12:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skerlnik

I agree with that, with the amendment that the government's job is to ensure access to all the options, so that choices can be made.

If people wish to pretend it's still 1740, they may do so.

It's not the government's job to be involved in any way whatsoever.

AnnEsthesia · #38 (**permalink**) 07-22-2008, 12:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chan

No, birth control allows you to escape the consequences of your choices.

No, birth control allows us to have a safe and healthy sex life. Your hangups are your own. Women should not have to choose between pregnancy and healthy sexual activity.

Skerlnik · #39 (**permalink**) 07-22-2008, 12:30 PM

I have to wonder about such a proposal, when it is so out of lockstep with what people want, or just modern progress in general?

It's not like the Bush Administration has any sort of overt Christian Fundamentalist agenda or anything.....

Chan · #40 (**permalink**) 07-22-2008, 01:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skerlnik

I have to wonder about such a proposal, when it is so out of lockstep with what people want, or just modern progress in general?

It's not like the Bush Administration has any sort of overt Christian Fundamentalist agenda or anything.....

It's nothing more than the typical government running of people's lives that you advocate. It's part of the big government nanny state that you love so much.

This legislation is the kind of thing that happens when you let government get too big.

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