If a tree falls in a forest it doesn't make a sound. It can't make a sound. It's a tree. A tree is a plant. Plants don't make sounds. But when it falls a falling tree will develop kinetic energy. Some of that kinetic energy will be released as sound waves on the tree's impact with the ground. Those sound waves will exist independent of anything else. If there are no humans around to hear those sound waves it doesn't matter. They will still exist. If a human is close enough then they will hear those sound waves. But simply because those sound waves might not be heard at that time by a human doesn't mean those sound waves don't exist. They do. That's because the natural laws of the universe are at work.

But "rights" are a human invention and not part of the natural laws of the universe. "Rights" are only recognised by humans interacting with one another. There are no "rights" independent of humanity. "Rights" aren't even innate in humans, they had to be invented, not discovered. And through time and in various cultures, "rights" have been variously interpreted. That's just another clue that they're not part of the natural laws of the universe. If they were then they would be constant across time and space. Gravity is a natural law of the universe whereas the "right" to freedom of speech is not.

The process of the tree falling produces a sound. The impact of the tree on the ground produces a sound.

You have not proven that they are a human invention. John Locke (and others like him) have explained why rights are "natural." You can either agree or disagree but if you disagree then you must prove that Locke was wrong.

__________________
A panda walks into a cafe. He orders a sandwich, eats it, then draws a gun and fires two shots in the air.

"Why?" asks the confused waiter, as the panda makes toward the exit. The panda produces a badly punctuated wildlife manual and tosses it over his shoulder.

"I'm a panda," he says at the door. "Look it up."

The waiter turns to the relevant entry and, sure enough, finds an explanation.

"Panda. Large black-and-white bear-like mammal, native to China. Eats, shoots and leaves."

"Sound" is a form of energy. It exists whether or not someone can hear it. It doesn't require someone to be in the forest for the energy to be created, it's created regardless. If a deaf person was standing in the forest and the tree fell behind them but they couldn't hear it, would it still make a sound? Sort of. It would still give out energy that was in the form of sound waves which may or may not be heard by the human ear. But whether or not those sound waves are heard is irrelevant, they exist by virtue of the transmission of kinetic energy.

As for Locke. I'll put my hand up and admit I don't know much about his work. The reference you gave me was on Civil Government. I'm going to guess that Locke was arguing for what we might call representative democracy where a monarch isn't the sole arbiter of what we can and can't do, where we decide what we can and can't do.

I'll need a bit of help in working out Locke's idea of rights though. I do maintain that what we call "rights" are simply human customs and therefore invented by humans.

Not the way he phrased it.

No, the burden of proof is on the person who says that something is. Cut the ****. "Sound" is a concept that is made up by people to describe kinetic energy causing air particles to vibrate. Our ears take in these vibrations and our brains help tell us what the sound is. So the whole question of whether or not a tree makes a sound if no one can hear it is moot. Yes, it does cause the air molecules to vibrate. Does that mean it makes a "sound"? Not necessarily.

Locke doesn't offer any evidence of his conclusions. All he says is that in nature everyone is totally free.

Yeah...because no one is telling them what to do. No **** they're totally free. Just because you have the ability to do something does not mean you have the right to do it.

__________________
"Moreover, I am cognizant of the interrelatedness of all communities and states...Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere. We are caught in an inescapable network of mutuality, tied in a single garment of destiny. Whatever affects one directly, affects all indirectly. Never again can we afford to live with the narrow, provincial "outside agitator" idea. Anyone who lives inside the United States can never be considered an outsider anywhere within its bounds."



~Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.

Natural rights require (go hand in hand) with personal responsibility. Your 'rights' end where another begins. Yes....you have the ability to break and enter into your neighbor's home. However, you have no right to do so. Ability and rights are not one in the same.

__________________
The law perverted! And the police powers of the state perverted along with it! The law, I say, not only turned from its proper purpose but made to follow an entirely contrary purpose! The law become the weapon of every kind of greed! Instead of checking crime, the law itself guilty of the evils it is supposed to punish! - Frederick Bastiat

Since when do thoughts exist outside our minds? Did someone step in radioactive waste and get a super power that allows their thoughts to become solid and exist outside of their mind? Or maybe it was just the founding fathers up on the weed.

__________________
Time is a great teacher, but unfortunately it kills all its pupils

Never take life seriously. Nobody gets out alive anyway.

When I die, I want to go peacefully like my Grandfather did, in his sleep -- not screaming, like the passengers in his car.

A computer once beat me at chess, but it was no match for me at kick boxing.

The only reason people get lost in thought is because it's unfamiliar territory.

I could've eaten Alphabit soup and crapped out a better post!

Are you stoned?

I understand what you are saying....I just couldn't help it. I also agree with you.....I think.

__________________
The law perverted! And the police powers of the state perverted along with it! The law, I say, not only turned from its proper purpose but made to follow an entirely contrary purpose! The law become the weapon of every kind of greed! Instead of checking crime, the law itself guilty of the evils it is supposed to punish! - Frederick Bastiat

It deepends, how much is needed before one is "stoned"? Let's just say, "it's all good."

__________________
Time is a great teacher, but unfortunately it kills all its pupils

Never take life seriously. Nobody gets out alive anyway.

When I die, I want to go peacefully like my Grandfather did, in his sleep -- not screaming, like the passengers in his car.

A computer once beat me at chess, but it was no match for me at kick boxing.

The only reason people get lost in thought is because it's unfamiliar territory.

I could've eaten Alphabit soup and crapped out a better post!

__________________
The law perverted! And the police powers of the state perverted along with it! The law, I say, not only turned from its proper purpose but made to follow an entirely contrary purpose! The law become the weapon of every kind of greed! Instead of checking crime, the law itself guilty of the evils it is supposed to punish! - Frederick Bastiat

__________________


Defeating market theocrats since 2001.