But what says that this is a natural thing? I can understand it's possible but I don't beleive rights are natural as certain societies will offer different rights and I have no problem with that. The right to bear arms for example may be necessary in America, but in britain it simple is not, and I don't believe we have the right to bear arms in Britain.

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Trust me, I'm a socialist!

There's power in a factory,power in the land, power in the hand of the worker. But it all amounts to nothing if together we don't stand, there is power in a union.
The union forever defending our rights, down with the blackleg, workers unite. To our brothers and our sisters in many far off lands, there is power in a union.
Money speaks for money, the devil for his own. - Billy Bragg

I disagree, I feel my view has more weight because if we look at the animal kingdom for example we can see the truth. Animals, discounting human inteference, have absolute freedom to do whatever they want or rather what their instincts dictate, but they have no rights. An animal has no right to life, no right to education, no right to bear arms, no right to healthcare etc... Only absolute positive freedom, but no negative freedom from anything.

No I don't see them as natural, I think all gay people should have equal rights, but in Saudi Arabia for example those rights are either opressed or not there, it doesn't mean I don't think they should be there.

No.

__________________
Trust me, I'm a socialist!

There's power in a factory,power in the land, power in the hand of the worker. But it all amounts to nothing if together we don't stand, there is power in a union.
The union forever defending our rights, down with the blackleg, workers unite. To our brothers and our sisters in many far off lands, there is power in a union.
Money speaks for money, the devil for his own. - Billy Bragg

I do not necessarily like the term natural. Some societies/governments will protect some rights and oppress others. I accept that. You and every other person has that right, but it is just a right that is oppressed in Britain.

__________________
May your paradise always be green, you liberties always be full, and may the ignorance of you enemies not drive you to be pro-nuke.

"We contend that for a nation to try to tax itself
into prosperity is like a man standing in a bucket and
trying to lift himself up by the handle."-Winston Churchill

Yes, lets look at the Animal Kingdom (As Humans come from the Animal Kingdom). Animals have natural rights. They have the right to roam freely. They have the right to kill to defend themselves. They have the right to be gay or not to be gay (depending on your view if its a choice or not).. negative freedoms are always there. Thus you extend the idea of these types of freedoms to Free Speech which is natural to all Animals. A wolf howls, a bear growls, a cow goes moo.. that is their form of speech.

Those things are natural, you are just too far up Socialist ideology's *** to realize this.

Positive Liberty is those things you listed (Education and Health Care).. these are "rights" conceived by Man which are not natural.

types of rights

So your idea of Positive Liberty doesn't go with what I am talking about Natural rights. Everyone one has the right to defend themselves ( i.e. the right to bear arms, Everyone has the right to Free Speech, Everyone has the right to roam freely, Everyone one has the right to their own sexuality) as these things if left on its own Naturally happen.



So you believe a person chooses to be gay. I think its how "God" made (or how they were created) them. Thus they are acting on their Natural Rights. Thats because States that ignore these rights are oppressing Natural (Negative) rights. Which goes back to what I said, States do not created Natural Rights, they only oppress them or recognize them.

__________________
Pioneers are walking all around singing songs about Lenin and they should be shot for it.

Handlebars

"If you are looking for the guilty, you need only look into a mirror"- V

It is inaccurate to say that I hate everything. I am strongly in favor of common sense, common honesty, and common decency. This makes me forever ineligible for public office.
H. L. Mencken

come on you know you wanna play football..

Beagán agus a rá go maith.

Economic Left/Right: 3.75
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -2.87

But surely it is only societal consensus which grants this, ask 100 Brits if they think they should/do have a right to bear arms and most will say no, but that does not men Americans shouldn't/don't have the right to bear arms.

__________________
Trust me, I'm a socialist!

There's power in a factory,power in the land, power in the hand of the worker. But it all amounts to nothing if together we don't stand, there is power in a union.
The union forever defending our rights, down with the blackleg, workers unite. To our brothers and our sisters in many far off lands, there is power in a union.
Money speaks for money, the devil for his own. - Billy Bragg

Societal consensus allows a right or oppresses it. Many times they will oppress these rights for the "greater good". So it remains unprotected and oppressed.

__________________
May your paradise always be green, you liberties always be full, and may the ignorance of you enemies not drive you to be pro-nuke.

"We contend that for a nation to try to tax itself
into prosperity is like a man standing in a bucket and
trying to lift himself up by the handle."-Winston Churchill

Those are not rights, all an animals has is freedom, it doesn't have the right to do anything. If you say it has the "right" to be gay for example as it is free to do that then does not an animal also have the right to kill for no reason even. There is much evidence of this happening. But surely you don't attribute this as being a right of humans?

If you continue to make comments in this vein I will not bother to reply, what this has to do with socialism is beyond me, anyone can argue whether or not rights are natural and what are natural rights are.

Positive liberty is the freedom to do something, not a right, negative liberty is the freedom from something. Like you say naturally everyone has the right to roam, to free speech, to bear arms, but not to education, nor to healthcare, nor to political participation. But they would also have the right to kill anyone, if we should follow your definition of a right.

Ignoring the statements repeating your position where in my comments have I said people chose to be gay?

__________________
Trust me, I'm a socialist!

There's power in a factory,power in the land, power in the hand of the worker. But it all amounts to nothing if together we don't stand, there is power in a union.
The union forever defending our rights, down with the blackleg, workers unite. To our brothers and our sisters in many far off lands, there is power in a union.
Money speaks for money, the devil for his own. - Billy Bragg

I am trying to understand but what is it that grants rights then, if not as I say?

__________________
Trust me, I'm a socialist!

There's power in a factory,power in the land, power in the hand of the worker. But it all amounts to nothing if together we don't stand, there is power in a union.
The union forever defending our rights, down with the blackleg, workers unite. To our brothers and our sisters in many far off lands, there is power in a union.
Money speaks for money, the devil for his own. - Billy Bragg

Nothing grants them.
They can simply be supported or protected by the government or society. Or the other by around.

__________________
May your paradise always be green, you liberties always be full, and may the ignorance of you enemies not drive you to be pro-nuke.

"We contend that for a nation to try to tax itself
into prosperity is like a man standing in a bucket and
trying to lift himself up by the handle."-Winston Churchill

You can't see them, can't smell them, can't notice the effects of them if they are opressed so what makes you think they exist as anything other than as a creation of society?

__________________
Trust me, I'm a socialist!

There's power in a factory,power in the land, power in the hand of the worker. But it all amounts to nothing if together we don't stand, there is power in a union.
The union forever defending our rights, down with the blackleg, workers unite. To our brothers and our sisters in many far off lands, there is power in a union.
Money speaks for money, the devil for his own. - Billy Bragg