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Civil Liberties and Civil Rights Discuss Civil Liberties and Civil rights here. Also discuss discrimination against minority groups as well, and ways to solve these issues.

View Poll Results: Can rights be rescinded?
Yes, they certainly can be. The people giveth and taketh away. 11 39.29%
It would be so hard to do, I can't even imagine it. 0 0%
Only under certain circumstances. Depends on the right. 10 35.71%
All "rights" are really just privileges, and we have to earn them. 1 3.57%
Never, ever! God gave us all our rights, and they are sacred. 6 21.43%
Voters: 28. You may not vote on this poll

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  #131 (permalink)  
Old 08-14-2008, 11:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skerlnik View Post
Question for general debate:

Can a right be rescinded?

Obviously, it doesn't happen often, but, in theory, does government have that ability? If so, under what circumstances? Examples? Are rights absolute and God-given, or are they purely human constructs and what can be granted can be taken away?

Just curious to see how others view what rights mean, and what they are to us.
Rights can be recinded if you are convicted of a crime and sent to prison. You loose the right of freedom, as well as other rights. I believe you also lose the right to vote or own a handgun when you get out.
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  #132 (permalink)  
Old 08-16-2008, 03:00 AM
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Natural rights require (go hand in hand) with personal responsibility. Your 'rights' end where another begins. Yes....you have the ability to break and enter into your neighbor's home. However, you have no right to do so. Ability and rights are not one in the same.
My point. Certain parties seem to believe that if you have the ability to do something, you have the right to do it.
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  #133 (permalink)  
Old 08-16-2008, 11:44 AM
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Originally Posted by Zephyr View Post
My point. Certain parties seem to believe that if you have the ability to do something, you have the right to do it.
No... Find me someone that thinks because he/she has the ability to kill someone they have the right to. Or someone that has think that because the have ability rape someone they have they right to. And so on... I don't know anyone that thinks that abilities are rights.
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  #134 (permalink)  
Old 08-16-2008, 12:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Zephyr View Post
My point. Certain parties seem to believe that if you have the ability to do something, you have the right to do it.
The one really has nothing to do with the other. Rights exist regardless of whether one has the ability to exercise them.
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"I'm a panda," he says at the door. "Look it up."

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  #135 (permalink)  
Old 08-16-2008, 12:57 PM
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The one really has nothing to do with the other. Rights exist regardless of whether one has the ability to exercise them.
Can you prove this? Can you even provide evidence of your conclusion?
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"Moreover, I am cognizant of the interrelatedness of all communities and states...Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere. We are caught in an inescapable network of mutuality, tied in a single garment of destiny. Whatever affects one directly, affects all indirectly. Never again can we afford to live with the narrow, provincial "outside agitator" idea. Anyone who lives inside the United States can never be considered an outsider anywhere within its bounds."



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  #136 (permalink)  
Old 08-16-2008, 06:13 PM
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Rights do not exist outside of the social sphere. They are purely social creations created purely for their social utility. Without an organized society to think them up and then protect them (because they feel they are good), they are political fictions. There's no such nonsense as a natural, independent right for or to anything. It's a mystical holdover from the medieval period that was given a new face during the Enlightenment because political radicals wanted to justify what they wanted to do, but didn't know how. The solution was just to make crap up and deflect any criticism by assertion it was god-given and self-evidently true. Really, you have no rights other than what society says you have and what the State protects This may be unpleasant for you to think, but it's true notwithstanding. Reality doesn't require your approval.

A "right" is a political abstraction--a protection of a welfare interest deemed important enough for social harmony and survival. They are more rules of thumb than anything else.
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  #137 (permalink)  
Old 08-18-2008, 12:08 AM
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The right to own slaves once existed. I recall a few laws and amendments changing that.

All rights are based around the protection of what you want. "Natural rights" don't exist, nor are they universal - other than hopeless pseudo-anarchists, few oppose imprisonment for violent offenders.
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  #138 (permalink)  
Old 08-18-2008, 12:25 AM
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Quote:
Rights do not exist outside of the social sphere. They are purely social creations created purely for their social utility. Without an organized society to think them up and then protect them (because they feel they are good), they are political fictions. There's no such nonsense as a natural, independent right for or to anything. It's a mystical holdover from the medieval period that was given a new face during the Enlightenment because political radicals wanted to justify what they wanted to do, but didn't know how. The solution was just to make crap up and deflect any criticism by assertion it was god-given and self-evidently true. Really, you have no rights other than what society says you have and what the State protects This may be unpleasant for you to think, but it's true notwithstanding. Reality doesn't require your approval.

A "right" is a political abstraction--a protection of a welfare interest deemed important enough for social harmony and survival. They are more rules of thumb than anything else.
There ya go.
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"Moreover, I am cognizant of the interrelatedness of all communities and states...Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere. We are caught in an inescapable network of mutuality, tied in a single garment of destiny. Whatever affects one directly, affects all indirectly. Never again can we afford to live with the narrow, provincial "outside agitator" idea. Anyone who lives inside the United States can never be considered an outsider anywhere within its bounds."



~Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.

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  #139 (permalink)  
Old 08-18-2008, 12:35 AM
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Indeed, which is why I created a brief grocery list of points for all anarchists to consider before they venture in absurdism. Purists of any type annoy the hell out of me:

Quote:
- Not all public services can be handled by private entities. Roads, like land, act as a monopoly regardless of the envisioned system. There is also the question of payment. I could easily remove a license plate or chip from my car. The only sideways argument is that people in the immediate area would pay for the roads, but 1.) you have an even bigger free rider problem and 2.) the demand is - again - restricted, making prices go up. The best solution for lowering road costs is actually a workers' council - the taxpayers are directly involved, and representatives can't be bought off into subsidization.
- Obviously it depends on the defense agency, but no harm should come to someone who espouses a fascist leaning, nor should religious leaders be executed.
- Incarceration of some form will probably be needed
- Anarchism doesn't mean "freedom to do whatever you want." If it's found out an association of adults are raping children, it is not wrong to destroy this association. Conflicts will still arise, albeit on a smaller scale.
- Supply and demand are just as relevant under socialism as they are capitalism, even moreso since investment decisions are made by everyone instead of the top 10%.
- Voluntary hierarchies (that does not mean restricting access without my consent or acknowledgment) are acceptable
- Communal family quarters is a terrible idea
- People gravitate towards associations, not businesses - to protect them.
- Politics (at least, in the manner we see today) would be frivelous under anarchism. A large upset of "rights" would mean people could leave for another group. Sorry, anti-abortion and anti-homosexual actions will be near impossible.
- Anarchism is, in practice and theory, a matter of "choice."
- Public transportation is great and should be improved, but people don't want to give up their cars.
- People will demand for protection outside of gun ownership. That could come from companies or militia.
- Destroying an association w. For anarchism to survive most of the human population needs to acknowledge this fact as much as they do the right to breathe, or the right to live, or the right to masturbate.
- Technically "free" socialist, capitalist, communist, feudalist, mutualist, and geolibertarian communities could arise under anarchism. People will gravitate towards what best serves their needs (in my mind a mix of socialist-collectivism, mutualism, and geoism)
- Nothing is perfect. Everything has some element that could compliment it. This is specifically targeted towards purists of any system.
- For primitivists - there is no possible way in hell that most of humanity would volunteer to take such a drastic action.
Stock it up, captain. We have a long Winter in Westeros.
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  #140 (permalink)  
Old 08-18-2008, 01:04 AM
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Anarchism is ironic because people don't want to live that way. Anarchism would just revert to where we are now, because it would suck and since people could do whatever they wanted, they would switch it back.
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"Moreover, I am cognizant of the interrelatedness of all communities and states...Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere. We are caught in an inescapable network of mutuality, tied in a single garment of destiny. Whatever affects one directly, affects all indirectly. Never again can we afford to live with the narrow, provincial "outside agitator" idea. Anyone who lives inside the United States can never be considered an outsider anywhere within its bounds."



~Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.

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