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Civil Liberties and Civil Rights Discuss Civil Liberties and Civil rights here. Also discuss discrimination against minority groups as well, and ways to solve these issues.

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  #21 (permalink)  
Old 06-13-2008, 09:10 AM
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Originally Posted by AnnEsthesia View Post
The difference between the attitudes of people on this thread seems to be that conservatives (generally) think the detainees are all guilty and the more liberals seem to feel that we should not presume guilt just because they were picked up by the military.
No, that's not it at all, and nobody suggested it.

They aren't Americans, nor were they arrested in America, and thus should not be subject to American jurisprudence. Nor are they POW's since no declaration of war has been made, and since they are not uniformed combatants of a hostile nation. You will not find stauncher constitutionalists than Chan or myself, but for the SCOTUS to unlawfully expand the Congressionally-limited power of the federal judiciary in this way is legally and ethically wrong.
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Old 06-13-2008, 09:17 AM
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Originally Posted by Chan View Post
Declaring them enemy combatants put them under the protection of the Geneva Conventions (at least in theory, though Guantanamo doesn't appear to be Geneva-compliant). This so-called "war on terror(ism)" is a crock of b.s. anyway! Even the CIA admits that 9/11 happened in retaliation for nearly 50 years of American interference in the internal affairs of Middle Eastern countries.
I thought the "enemy combatant" classification was a legal fiction so they could be held and tortured. I thought that if they were POWs the Geneva Conventions would apply.
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  #23 (permalink)  
Old 06-13-2008, 09:20 AM
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Originally Posted by Space_Coyote View Post
No, that's not it at all, and nobody suggested it.

They aren't Americans, nor were they arrested in America, and thus should not be subject to American jurisprudence. Nor are they POW's since no declaration of war has been made, and since they are not uniformed combatants of a hostile nation. You will not find stauncher constitutionalists than Chan or myself, but for the SCOTUS to unlawfully expand the Congressionally-limited power of the federal judiciary in this way is legally and ethically wrong.
Apparently the Supreme Court disagrees with you. They found that since Guantanamo was under the full control of the US government that habeas corpus applies.
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  #24 (permalink)  
Old 06-13-2008, 09:22 AM
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I thought the "enemy combatant" classification was a legal fiction so they could be held and tortured. I thought that if they were POWs the Geneva Conventions would apply.
Enemy combatants become prisoners of war when they are captured. The Bush Administration did some wrangling to get around the Geneva Conventions but by declaring them enemy combatants the Bush Administration (whether it likes it or not) technically put them under the protection of the Geneva Conventions. One could argue that the Bush Administration (and Congress for authorizing it) is in violation of the Conventions and should be tried for war crimes (but if you put the Bush Administration on trial you have to put those members of Congress that voted for it on trial as well).
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Old 06-13-2008, 09:23 AM
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Apparently the Supreme Court disagrees with you. They found that since Guantanamo was under the full control of the US government that habeas corpus applies.
The Supreme Court has been known to be wrong (Jim Crow laws, "separate but equal," "public use" meaning sell to a developer so the city can get more in property taxes, etc.). Besides, it was a 5 to 4 vote.
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Old 06-13-2008, 09:33 AM
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Apparently the Supreme Court disagrees with you. They found that since Guantanamo was under the full control of the US government that habeas corpus applies.
SCOTUS derives that power from Marbury v. Madison; a case in which John Marshall intentionally ignored the jurisdictional question of law and then ruled the Judiciary Act of 1789 unconstitutional despite its inherent and plainly seen constitutionality. Then of course you've got other idiotic rulings which, coupled with certiorari, gives the court unconstitutional, near dictatorial arbitrary power to strike down laws with which it has political issue (all the while excluding "political issues"). So you'll have to excuse my lack of recognition of SCOTUS' authority in this case.

Edit:
Oh, another thing:

Since Lakhdar Boumediene v. Bush is not an appeal (tribunals don't count as court cases under US law), SCOTUS had no right to hear the case as per Article III.
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Old 06-13-2008, 12:01 PM
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You don't release prisoners of war until after the war. When will this so-called "war on terror(ism)" end?
I don't agree that the war on terrorism is a war, it's largely a propoganda campaign with the effect of taking people's rights and liberties and gaining oil for the US, though the beneficients won't be the people of the US. The terrorist suspects are either innocent people who happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time with the wrong skin colour, or violent criminals with a weak philosophical/theological argument.

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Terrorists are not criminals, they're enemy combatants. They have, in effect, declared war on an entire nation. If terrorists (what you folks might have called the American colonists if the Revolution had taken place in the 20th or 21st century) are merely criminals then there's the whole issue of extradition (since many of these terrorists were taken from Afghanistan, Iraq and elsewhere outside the US) and into whose custody these terrorists should have been surrendered. If they're criminals then the military should not have been involved but, instead, law enforcement agencies.
I disagree that terrorists are enemy combatants as I have covered above. And about law enforcement agencies and not the military being involved, well I couldn't agree more.
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  #28 (permalink)  
Old 06-13-2008, 12:07 PM
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Of course, not everyone that has been held was an enemy combatant, as shown by how many have quietly been let go back to Iraq.
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Old 06-13-2008, 01:59 PM
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Originally Posted by leviathon435 View Post
I can understand putting prisoners of war into a secure facility restricting their freedom of movement but onyl until they can be released safely home. And if we're talking about suspected terrorists well they deserve a fair trial just like anyone else and the same rights extended to other suspected criminals-and they should remain innocent until proven guilty.

Only in the eyes and minds of socialist Levi. These people are enemy soldiers till proved differently. And to release them means we will be fighting them once again.
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Old 06-13-2008, 02:03 PM
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Only in the eyes and minds of socialist Levi. These people are enemy soldiers till proved differently. And to release them means we will be fighting them once again.
They're suspected criminals! What part of that is hard to understand?

I've got an idea, why don't we put all people with brown skin in guantanamo bay, then we'd have no more terrorist attacks!
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