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Civil Liberties and Civil Rights Discuss Civil Liberties and Civil rights here. Also discuss discrimination against minority groups as well, and ways to solve these issues.

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  #81 (permalink)  
Old 05-12-2008, 10:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Skerlnik View Post
All schools are local, by definition, anyway. I don't recall my teachers being Federal employees.
At least not in the United States (yet).



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Yes, I do insist. The very idea of EduCorp or Wal-Teach, Inc., teaching our kids horrifies me.
But many private schools do better than public schools in providing education.



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Ergo my insistence on consistency across the board. Failure and poor quality education should simply not be possible, were I King. I think education's far too important to be left to chance and indiviidualized variation. And, I don't care how schools get there, they can have whatever curriculum they want...but I want far, far higher standards, and far more acheivement for EVERY kid, not just rich kids.

I'll be the first to agree that our government needs loads of improvement, Chan.
I'll make you a deal: I'll vote for you to become head of the coming world government if you implement the International Baccalaureate Organisation curriculum as the minimum standard for curriculum (International Baccalaureate), let the organization enforce the standard, and leave everything else up to local communities (even if that means leaving governments out of it).



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Here, we disagree. I think education isn't something that should be some individualistic decision. We can't all just decide what speed is best for a highway, right? And, quality can easily be measured objectively.
It's obvious we disagree on this point. But if you take from parents this basic responsibility, how many other things are you going to take away from the parents?



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My "ilk"? Now, your getting into hyperbole. Slaves, indeed.
"Ilk" is a good noun. Look it up: Dictionary and Thesaurus - Merriam-Webster Online.
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A panda walks into a cafe. He orders a sandwich, eats it, then draws a gun and fires two shots in the air.

"Why?" asks the confused waiter, as the panda makes toward the exit. The panda produces a badly punctuated wildlife manual and tosses it over his shoulder.

"I'm a panda," he says at the door. "Look it up."

The waiter turns to the relevant entry and, sure enough, finds an explanation.

"Panda. Large black-and-white bear-like mammal, native to China. Eats, shoots and leaves."

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  #82 (permalink)  
Old 05-12-2008, 10:23 PM
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It's obvious we disagree on this point. But if you take from parents this basic responsibility, how many other things are you going to take away from the parents?
Not much else.

Education is too important to let parents make the decision.

Many parents obviously have no idea what's best for their kids (thankfully, mine not included).
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  #83 (permalink)  
Old 05-12-2008, 10:24 PM
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Originally Posted by GeneCosta View Post
Children are not the property of their parents; they are unique individuals who proceed from the womb lacking noticeable "rights" like voting due to their inability to make presumably accurate or self-reflective decisions.
Not property but certainly the responsibility of parents. When governments can give birth to children then governments can take responsibility for them. Until then, government had better keep its damned hands off!

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As such, all kids deserve an education.
No one "deserves" an education.
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I don't know anyone who would look back and congratulate their parents on keeping them willfully ignorant and uneducated.
You wrongly assume that all parents would do this. Besides, there are different kinds of education and it should be tailored to meet the needs of particular families/communities/cultures.
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I view every legal decision's consequence not in terms of arbitrary "rights" but instead biological conclusions.
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In terms of biology, what is best? I think mandatory education, to some degree, is acceptable. Mandates on how one cares for children shouldn't be abolished. We don't say 8 year olds can make the choice to have sex with a 40 year old man, for instance.
In terms of biology, what is best is what the parents decide. But I'm really sorry that you have such a poor view of rights.

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It's in the best interest of the individual and community that every man and woman be given the best possible education.
It's up to the parents to decide what's best for their children, not you and certainly not some damned government. When governments start giving birth to children then they can decide what's best for those children.
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The problem with our current system is deep, and mostly has to due with an unwillingness to actually throw around heterodox ideas.
Your silly notion of trusting the government to provide education is not heterodox.
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I believe in democratizing campuses starting from the secondary school, creating a national standard, eliminating the failed policy of NCLB, concentrating more efforts on summer programs, expanding the arts, booting private firms out of school, focusing more on vocational and career-oriented education early on, reworking how schools are funded, and using a technocratic demarchy model to create textbooks (not corporate textbooks) - from which the teacher and/or student can pick.
How about we just leave it up to the parents where the decision-making belongs.
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A panda walks into a cafe. He orders a sandwich, eats it, then draws a gun and fires two shots in the air.

"Why?" asks the confused waiter, as the panda makes toward the exit. The panda produces a badly punctuated wildlife manual and tosses it over his shoulder.

"I'm a panda," he says at the door. "Look it up."

The waiter turns to the relevant entry and, sure enough, finds an explanation.

"Panda. Large black-and-white bear-like mammal, native to China. Eats, shoots and leaves."

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  #84 (permalink)  
Old 05-12-2008, 10:26 PM
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Not much else.
Yeah, right! You keep believing such nonsense.

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Education is too important to let parents make the decision.
Why? Who the hell are you to dictate that I shouldn't decide what's best for MY child. Keep your damned hands off MY child!!!!!!!

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Many parents obviously have no idea what's best for their kids (thankfully, mine not included).
Oh, and you know what's best for everyone else's kids? Who the hell do you think you are to decide what's best for someone else's kids?
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A panda walks into a cafe. He orders a sandwich, eats it, then draws a gun and fires two shots in the air.

"Why?" asks the confused waiter, as the panda makes toward the exit. The panda produces a badly punctuated wildlife manual and tosses it over his shoulder.

"I'm a panda," he says at the door. "Look it up."

The waiter turns to the relevant entry and, sure enough, finds an explanation.

"Panda. Large black-and-white bear-like mammal, native to China. Eats, shoots and leaves."

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  #85 (permalink)  
Old 05-13-2008, 12:14 AM
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It shouldn't be left up to parents any more than killing their kids by failing to treat their illnesses should be "left up to parents." It's absurd.
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  #86 (permalink)  
Old 05-13-2008, 12:32 AM
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Originally Posted by Technocratic_Utilitarian View Post
It shouldn't be left up to parents any more than killing their kids by failing to treat their illnesses should be "left up to parents." It's absurd.
That should as well, it is called taking your kid to the hospital.
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  #87 (permalink)  
Old 05-13-2008, 12:49 AM
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Originally Posted by Chan View Post
Why is it the responsibility of society and not the parents (though, admittedly, you did include the parents)?
Because they become members in society and live as members of society, and give and take to society. Them having an education is what is best for society whether they choose to use it of not, it is a tool that everyone should have, whether or not they use that tool.

Education helps later in life, therefore whether or not they obtain it is of no use or hurt to the parents, so they have little motivation other than pride. When it is everyone that will benefit from that person's education, than everybody should be making a small contribution to make sure it happens.
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  #88 (permalink)  
Old 05-13-2008, 01:19 AM
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Originally Posted by xjoe3x View Post
That should as well, it is called taking your kid to the hospital.
That's silly. Many of the don't on 'religious principle" and thus kill their kids. It's a stupid exception that shouldn't be allowed. Nor should it be allowed to put your kids on "alternative medicines" instead of real medicine. It's tantamount to murder or neglect. Unless there is a valid emergency, parents ought also be forced to take their kids to get vaccinated.
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  #89 (permalink)  
Old 05-13-2008, 12:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Technocratic_Utilitarian View Post
That's silly. Many of the don't on 'religious principle" and thus kill their kids. It's a stupid exception that shouldn't be allowed. Nor should it be allowed to put your kids on "alternative medicines" instead of real medicine. It's tantamount to murder or neglect. Unless there is a valid emergency, parents ought also be forced to take their kids to get vaccinated.
Ya and that is there choice to make.
It should be allowed, they are not your kids or mine.
They are the responsibility of the parents as they should be.
You should be able to treat your child's illness whoever you think best.
If that is taking them to a hospital then fine.
If it is taking them to an acupuncturist that is fine as well.
It is not murder or neglect.
It is just not doing what YOU think, again they are not your kids or society's kids they are the parents kids, should be done. Parents should never be forced to treat their children in any way.
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  #90 (permalink)  
Old 05-13-2008, 01:08 PM
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Ya and that is there choice to make.
This statement's as absurd as saying child abuse is their choice to make. Don't be ridiculous. Whether through stupidity, ignorance, or malice, it is neglectful and harms their children unreasonable. If it kills them, they ought to be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law and any other children removed from their care and put into state custody. They are a danger to children and unfit parents.

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It should be allowed, they are not your kids or mine.
Irrelevant whose kids they are. My neighbour isn't min, but I won't tolerate him murdering people either nor killing people by neglectful behaviour. Moreover, refusing vaccines for bogus reasons hurts society by diminishing herd immunity, putting the health and lives of others at risk. When you begin to impact society, it becomes society's business. Next.




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It is not murder or neglect.
If they die because you deliberately refused to get them sound medical care, it's tantamount to killing them through neglect. If you know what the likely consequences will be anyway, and you continue to do it, you are an unfit parent putting the health of your child in jeopardy. If you kill them by denying them proper medical care, whether you are just stupid or ignorant, you are being neglectful and failing to take reasonable precautions to prevent harm. You're a sick individual that you want parents to be able to effectively kill their children. Then again, you are libertarian. I am not surprised. They have a very poor grasp of ethics.

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Parents should never be forced to treat their children in any way.
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Did you even bother to think before you typed this out? Apparently not too much. You might as well cut out the b.s. freedom rhetoric and state what you really mean: "parents shouldn't be forced to take care of their kids, and if they kill them, oh well, too bad so sad!" According to this logic, parents shouldn't be held accountable and "forced" to treat their children. If they just don't feel like it, or if they ignore all sound medical care and use 'prayer', and the kid dies, it's all hunky dory. That's retarded, sorry.
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Last edited by Technocratic_Utilitarian : 05-13-2008 at 01:26 PM.
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