I certainly can't argue that it ain't seriously broken. But, I would say that the government really isn't "in" the business, but primarily sets the perameters for local school operation. You and I disagree on whether or not the Federal (or even local?) government has a mandate to ensure an educated population.

I reference Brown v. Board cases that clearly indicate that the government has a mandate and the responsibility to ensure access and involvement in education. Yes, that was a segregation case, but I'm using it broadly, here. Had the SC decided differently, and asserted that the government has no business, period....

So, to me, it seems pretty clear that governments DO have at least some authority and interest in education.

Naturally, I disagree. I consider education a public good, and not subject to the same variable market forces that apply to widgets. If someone buys a bad widget,he goes and gets another one, and gives bad rep to that widget company, etc. Normal market capitalism applies. However, since the fruits of education don't become apparent for years..

Correct me if I am wrong, Chan, but the gist of your argument is wanting to allow the freedom to NOT be standard. Essentially, that if JoeBob's Discount Schools, Inc. is filling a market need for iffy teaching, that that should be permissible.

I'm just not seeing the pitfalls to the public education theory, other than disallowing the freedom to fail. Which should we value more: freedom for freedom's sake, or the education of the kids? As the saying goes, failure is not an option.

Why must the military? I could easily assert that it's the people's responsibility to defend the country themselves. Buy whatever missiles and tanks you need from contractors, if you can, and hope like hell your neighbor's willing to help you defend your house. Sure, that's a bit absurd (I hope we agree), but I consider education also to be a "public good".

Privatization inherently leads to inequality of access and I just can't support that. Governments have the power and resources to do it, and I am not comfortable with the idea of corporations "selling" something as life-basic as education, especially without oversights and serious perameters.

If corporations can do it, and the nation wants to trust it, okay, but I just can't envision that would happen without government involvement. Everyone has a right to be educated, therefore a baseline, public system for the people should be provided. Nothing wrong with private education, but even they are beholden to certain standards, yes?

Were I a parent, I would expect and demand my teachers, schools and curriculum be top-flight and accountable to some entity with enforcement capability. And, that's all I'm espousing, here, really. My visions and desires for an educational system would be radically different than the public education system we have today, for sure. I do not argue for continued limping along like we have in the past. Our very future depends on serious changes, for sure.

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An employee gets trampled to death by a frenzied, greedy mob at a Walmart sale, and customers actually complained when the store closed. Yet, I'm the bad guy for suggesting policies that assume people act like retarded herd animals that need government nannying and control....

OH I blame parents and the kids as well, when they deserve the blame. Sometimes it is the teacher.

While in Germany at my fathers duty station I went to the school run by the military in that it selected the teachers, for 5 and a half years. 4th grade upward.
When we went back to America, I was at public school in Oakland, California. Not only did I have to fight to retain my lunch card but I was for the first time an A student. But compared to the rest of the world...

Five Myths About U.S. Kids Outclassed by the Rest of the World

By Paul Farhi
Sunday, January 21, 2007; Page B02: Five Myths About U.S. Kids Outclassed by the Rest of the World - washingtonpost.com

The usual hand-wringing accompanied the Department of Education's release late last year of new statistics on how U.S. students performed on international tests. How will the United States compete in the global economy, went the lament, when our students lag behind the likes of Singapore and Hong Kong in math and science? American fourth-graders ranked 12th in the world on one international math test, and eighth-graders were 14th. Is this further evidence of the failure of the nation's schools?

Not exactly. In fact, a closer look at how our kids perform against the international "competition" suggests that this story line may contain more than a few myths:

And: KUOW: Program Archive

American High School vs. the Rest of the World

RealAudio

MP3: High Low
Are American high schoolers falling behind their international teenage counterparts? Studies show American students don't do as well on academic tests, and don't study as much as their global peers. Are American schools too easy? How does the high school experience in American compare with equivalent schooling elsewhere? Did you go to high school in another part of the world? Tell us how your experience compared.

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Yea can't keep the words of your great leader.

Prophet Muhammad - “Do you love your creator? Love your fellow-beings first.”

Good info, mlurp. Still doesn't excuse or eliminate a need for top notch education, though. We should never be complacent. I want our kids to blow the lid off those sorts of comparisons...and that means ALL schoolkids, not just those lucky few at a top school.

And, I am willing to be draconian and autocratic to get those results. It's just the kind of guy I am, and how important I think education is. (Many here can thank their lucky stars I am not in charge of anything....)

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An employee gets trampled to death by a frenzied, greedy mob at a Walmart sale, and customers actually complained when the store closed. Yet, I'm the bad guy for suggesting policies that assume people act like retarded herd animals that need government nannying and control....

So who would you have in the "education business" Bill Gates? The CIA? McDonalds? A church?

Education isn't a business anyway. Education is the process which develops people. With no education you only have herd animals.

Simply because the private sector only considers the bottom line (profit) and the religious "education" providers provide, in the main brainwashing.

I would say he meant the private sector. The CIA would just be the government.

Education is not a business? Come on now. It has been a business for a very long time. Either paying the teacher or working for them after they taught.

That is not true either, it does not take into consideration not-for-profit businesses.

I went to a catholic school, they failed at brainwashing me I am agnostic.
Many just offer better education with one class on religion.

It does more than merely set parameters and, again, it's not the government's responsibility to provide education.

Just because the Supreme Court decides something doesn't mean the decision is correct. These are the same idiots, after all, that gave us the definition of "public use" to include taking your house and selling it to a developer because the developer can be charged more in property taxes. Besides, the issue in Brown and related cases was not education itself but equal protection under the law.

Yes, but you're one of those government-loving nanny staters; so of course you think education is a public good. However, market forces do work with education and a good example of this is how some colleges are considered better than others - better colleges attract better students (or at least students that can afford the better colleges). So also, better primary and secondary schools are often a major selling point in the real estate market.

Yes, it should be permissible and the marketplace should decide which schools survive.

That's the problem: because public schools are allowed to exist despite their abysmal failure, there is no benefit to the children who are forced to endure them. We should always value freedom more than government control over people's lives.

One could argue that having a standing professional army is unconstitutional because there is nothing in Article I of the Constitution that gives Congress the power to establish a standing army (it can, however, have a standing navy).

Why must there be equal access? Why can't those responsible for educating their children (the parents) provide the oversights and parameters?

Is there a right to be educated? Or is it simply part of a parent's responsibility to provide whatever education is necessary (and notice I said "necessary") to prepare their children for adulthood?

The marketplace would ensure quality because the consumers would generally seek out the better product - or at least the best product they can afford.

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A panda walks into a cafe. He orders a sandwich, eats it, then draws a gun and fires two shots in the air.

"Why?" asks the confused waiter, as the panda makes toward the exit. The panda produces a badly punctuated wildlife manual and tosses it over his shoulder.

"I'm a panda," he says at the door. "Look it up."

The waiter turns to the relevant entry and, sure enough, finds an explanation.

"Panda. Large black-and-white bear-like mammal, native to China. Eats, shoots and leaves."

Yes, no, no, and yes. I have no problem with private corporations being involved in education, especially in providing the old-style apprenticeship programs where kids spent years learning a trade. I do have a problem with the government being involved and I do have a problem with companies like McDonald's but only because their food sucks! I also don't have a problem with churches, synagogues, mosques, covens, etc. establishing their own schools.

With these government indoctrination centers (public schools) you only have herd animals.

Yes, and one thing that increases profit is having a better quality product. And so what if religious schools engage in brainwashing? Government indoctrination centers do the same thing. If that's what some parents want for their children, that's their business - keep your damned nose out of other people's families!

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A panda walks into a cafe. He orders a sandwich, eats it, then draws a gun and fires two shots in the air.

"Why?" asks the confused waiter, as the panda makes toward the exit. The panda produces a badly punctuated wildlife manual and tosses it over his shoulder.

"I'm a panda," he says at the door. "Look it up."

The waiter turns to the relevant entry and, sure enough, finds an explanation.

"Panda. Large black-and-white bear-like mammal, native to China. Eats, shoots and leaves."

(chuckling) Well, Chan, we're just not gonna convince each other, here. It is what it is. I salute you, sir.

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An employee gets trampled to death by a frenzied, greedy mob at a Walmart sale, and customers actually complained when the store closed. Yet, I'm the bad guy for suggesting policies that assume people act like retarded herd animals that need government nannying and control....

It is never my intention to convince anyone.

__________________
A panda walks into a cafe. He orders a sandwich, eats it, then draws a gun and fires two shots in the air.

"Why?" asks the confused waiter, as the panda makes toward the exit. The panda produces a badly punctuated wildlife manual and tosses it over his shoulder.

"I'm a panda," he says at the door. "Look it up."

The waiter turns to the relevant entry and, sure enough, finds an explanation.

"Panda. Large black-and-white bear-like mammal, native to China. Eats, shoots and leaves."