Choice, simply for the sake of choice, may not be in our long term educational best interest. Nobody stops anyone from putting their kids into alternatives. But, my fundamental argument stands: education is a public good, and should remain accessible to all, regardless of wealth, status, interest or area.

It is not in our best interest to allow the"choice" not to be educated. Therefore, education should be mandatory. Sometimes, you have to eat your broccoli.

If that's where you are getting your seething hatred of government from, no, I don't think I want to. You are implying some sort of evil government educational conspiracy, here...

You're conflating several things, here. Yes, there should be equal access to education, to some minimum basic standard, regardless of wealth or other factors. To have a system where the richer folk get the better education (K-12 at least) is just unacceptable, self-defeating, and perpetuates an aristocracy.

Cost-wise, since everyone, not just those with kids in school, benefits from an educated society, the taxes/costs are spread throughout the population. That's the basic point OF taxes, in general. If I don't drive for a year, I can't ask for my portion of road/sales taxes back, can I?

Again, that's a basic philisophical difference, here. There's direct benefit, and there's indirect benefit. Most arguments I hear along these lines only deal with direct benefit.

And that line about kids learning at different rates in obvious, and not the equality I am talking about, as you know. I am not talking about some conformity factory fantasy horror scenario, like in The Wall.

I could never tell them how, only that they must. Do you value "choice" so much that you are willing to simply any sort of rules or requirements at all?

I am having a hard time seeing where your lines are drawn, if at all. I am getting the impression that you feel speed limits, or rights-of-way, or stoplights are oppressive? Is there any sort of law you are okay with?

Man, you must have had a brutal childhood, or something. Where's all this "indoctrination" stuff coming from? Textbooks are textbooks. Teachers are pretty variable. I'm really not understanding where all the anger is coming from.

Besides, government tells people what they have to do all the time. You HAVE to pay your taxes. You HAVE to register your car. You HAVE to drive on the right side, etc.

I'm getting this anarchistic vibe from you, Chan. If you advocate a lawless free-for-all, then there's nothing more we can say to each other.

Unless and until citizens can control exactly where their taxes are spent, that's just going to be too damned bad, really. I don't really want my taxes pissed away in Iraq, but I have no control over that.

Again, people do not realize that they derive indirect benefit from an educated society. There's simply no way education could be even what it is now, if it were only the parents paying in. The costs are spread around, obviously, and everyone ends up paying less.

Well, now that's true. Money, in and of itself doesn't solve problems (although it's a big part). There's been a real failure of leadership, and a de-prioritization of education in this country. People don't value quality education as much as they should.

As I have said, it's going to take visionary, committed leadership to get things back on track.

That's because regular people aren't in charge. Responsible adults know how to balance a checkbook, and have logical, common sense priorities.

The monkeys we elect into office are generally already wealthy, insulated, privileged, and seem to have disassociative-reality disorders.

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"All those in favor of referring a study of leadership feasibility to the political viability subcommittee to consider forming a task group, signify by saying aye!" -- Congress

Because they are the ones who keep voting for the friggin bonds. I'll give them a pass if / when they no longer have the ability to tax me more.

Indoctrination is NewsSpeak conservatives use to disguise the fact that they don't want their children to learn things they don't approve of. Schools prevent parents from isolating and indoctrinating their kids into their bizarre world viwes. Naturally, it's seen as threatening, as they lose power over their kids minds.

For example, evolution. They don' want no damn teacher-man telling their kids theyza come from no darn'd monkeys. They would like nothing more than to cushion and molly-coddle their kids, wrapping them in little ideological bubbles. Anything that breaks that power is automatically disdained.

Me? Just a guy, giving his opinion.

However, if I ever got elected to anything (unlikely), I'd probably be your worst nightmare. I got me an authoritarian streak a mile wide.

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"All those in favor of referring a study of leadership feasibility to the political viability subcommittee to consider forming a task group, signify by saying aye!" -- Congress

I might high five you for that. And I thought I was all alone here (but I'm statist, or totalitarian, not authoritarian).

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Set your destination with your heart, get there with your mind.

"The wisest men follow their own direction." - Euripides

I guess so, but I'm just having a hard time seeing basic education as government indoctrination, really. Facts are facts, texts are texts, and governments typically don't "dictate" what's on the curriculum, except for certain broad acheivement objectives.

I don't really see how teaching Jimmy how to read or algebra as politicized "indoctrination". Is there some alternative to that I am unaware of? As far as I know, kids barely have any concept of party philosophy at all, and both liberals and conservatives benefit from being able to write a book report coherently.

Chan, you'll have to explain exactly how basic education constitutes "indoctrination", because I am just not seeing it. Are you wanting the kids to have the choice and freedom to make up their own geometry rules? Let them write however they want? If so, is that going to be all that helpful later in life?

I remember hating learning long division, and, sure, I thought my teacher was oppressive and evil, when I was 12. But I can't really recall anything sinister about geography. Looking back, a course on household finance would be a great addition to the H.S. curriculum....otherwise, I think my schooling prepared me for life pretty well, overall. I can't even imagine not being able to read.

Considering that people from all over the political spectrum come out of the public school system, I don't see any evidence for "indoctrination", per se.

'Splain?

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"All those in favor of referring a study of leadership feasibility to the political viability subcommittee to consider forming a task group, signify by saying aye!" -- Congress

Well, I just get to the point where there's so many exceptions, we no longer have any damn rules. Americans are getting so individualistic that it's no wonder we can't identify any common causes anymore.

Maybe autocratic wouldbe a more accurate term. I'm not evil, I just want **** DONE! I don't want to hear why X can't be done. Find a way to do it. I want that ship, Captain, not excuses.

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"All those in favor of referring a study of leadership feasibility to the political viability subcommittee to consider forming a task group, signify by saying aye!" -- Congress

An example of what they would consider indoctrination no rational person would actually consider "indoctrination." For example, evolution. They don't agree with it, thus merely teaching it consists of indoctrination.

If you teach any of the social sciences or humanities, say history, and don't whitewash it and trumpet American values mindlessly, they call that biased indoctrination. For example, they tend to whine about history a lot unless it's a stream of pro-American, patriotic garbage. You're anti-american if you disagree.

In anthropology/sociology, you can't mention--shock--other countries have different systems and rules, and that it's not everywhere that gays are treated badly! That's just unacceptable "homosexual agenda." If you teach that it's generally good to cooperate and be tolerant, that's also part of the "brainwashing agenda."

The real reason is that they want to teach entirely different values that are local, biased, racist, sexist, etc. Schools put a damper on that by exposing children to other ideas the parents would rather have their kids avoid.

Why do you think most parents' number 1 or 2 reason for home schooling is religious? They want to wrap the kid up in a little God blanket. They set up self-contained environments where the kids only meet certain people, access pre-approved ideas. It's one reason I oppose home schooling. If anything, home schooling is the perfect breeding ground for indoctrination. But they have no problem with that.

Not in Texas. We have an elected Board of Education that takes up such important topics like teaching intelligent design as science.

Thank goodness you were joking. I was about to post in response. WHEW! But sadly, I have met people who would truly believe such idiocy in RL. Not a pretty sight.