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Civil Liberties and Civil Rights Discuss Civil Liberties and Civil rights here. Also discuss discrimination against minority groups as well, and ways to solve these issues.

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  #21 (permalink)  
Old 04-17-2008, 01:14 AM
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Default But they want to clear the space and save on the costs

as every state is seeking ways to keep up with less from the Federal Govt. (see thread on what the war costs per state: Cost of War per state - Political Fever - The Political Debate Forums)
I really think at governors gathering and in many higher levels these things are just tossed around and then decisions are made, and implemented. But I could be wrong too.

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Originally Posted by Bourne View Post
This is troubling news. Given the number of persons wrongfully convicted in the US it is very likely that a number of those facing execution may indeed be innocent. Unlike other forms of punishment one cannot reverse killing a person later found to be innocent. In my opinion the death penalty should be abolished.

What are your thoughts on capital punishment? END QUOTE.................

Well if they get the person (like one here a short while ago posted below.) in the crime at the time and facts are facts then yes let the jury decide. And if you check my local papers news today you will see a man confessed to killing his wife another about some other killing. Hey Kansas is like any other state. People are just taking the law and saying to hell with it and acting out without giving clear thoughts to their actions.

CJOnline / The Topeka Capital-Journal - Homicide victim an 'innocent bystander' My local pape Home Page: CJOnline

Homicide victim an 'innocent bystander'
Club owner blames gang violence; brother says family angry
By Ann Marie Bush
The Capital-Journal
Published Wednesday, April 16, 2008
The bullets that struck and killed 30-year-old Albert L. Conley this past weekend outside of Mahogany Lounge in central Topeka were meant for someone else, club owner Mario Wilkerson said Tuesday.

"He was an innocent bystander who was trying to break up a fight," said Wilkerson, who added that the altercation was related to gang violence.

Wilkerson said the fight had started at another club earlier Friday and some of the people involved ended up at Mahogany Lounge, 1307 S.W. Huntoon.

"Two people had a pushing match inside," Wilkerson said.

Wilkerson said he removed the people from his club early Saturday and called the police. Shortly afterward, shots rang out.

"Police were on the scene when shots were fired," the club owner said "This is gang related. This is not a club problem. This is a society problem."

He said the incident was caught on surveillance tape by Charlie's Retail Liquor, 1235 S.W. Huntoon. Police would neither confirm nor deny Wilkerson's claim about the tape.

Mahogany Lounge has been open for about nine months. Wilkerson said except for an incident in October when he was shot in the leg outside of his club, it is a pretty quiet place.

Nate Jackson, who is a DJ at the club on Fridays and Saturdays, said Conley, known as "Al" to friends and family members, knew one of the people involved in the fight.

"Commotion broke out and bam, his life was gone," Jackson said. "He was there about 20 minutes before his life was gone. This was a good guy. He was being a good Samaritan. It was a real tragic, horrific thing."

Conley's family is still reeling from the shock.

"I think it's stupid," said Mitch White, Conley's 36-year-old half brother. "The whole gun thing — it's stupid. We're hurt. We're mad at the boy, but we know we have to forgive him. We want to forgive him, but we're very angry at him."

Timothy D. Arterberry, 17, of Topeka, was arrested shortly after 2:15 a.m. Saturday. Police spokeswoman Kristi Pankratz said police officers in the area heard gunshots and gave chase before they took him into custody. Arterberry was arrested in connection with murder and a weapons violation. He was booked into the Shawnee County Juvenile Detention Center.

The investigation continues, Pankratz said.

White said his brother, who had been living with him, was a caring person.

"He had a little trouble with the law," he said. "But he was a changed person. He helped people out."

Funeral arrangements are pending.

Wilkerson, along with family members and friends of Conley, are planning a march in his memory on May 1. He said Mahogany Lounge will be closed this weekend, and he will make a determination later as to whether the club will reopen.

White said Conley was struck by bullets three times — once in the shoulder, once in the neck and once in the cheek.

Conley had been working two jobs and was expecting a baby, White said.

"He was trying to better himself," he said. "He wanted to get his life together."

Bullets put an end to that, White said.

"Kids just don't understand," he said. "They pull the trigger, and that's the end of someone's life. These kids don't understand that gangs are a dead-end road."

Ann Marie Bush can be reached at (785) 295-1207 or ann.bush@cjonline.com.

This guy was caught and another he shot died, so yes if given the death sentence do it. To bad he is just 17. But I am sure he will be tried a san adult. And get 7 to 15 years maybe 15 at least. But if I am right about what I said above he is toast already.



Supreme Court Allows Lethal Injection for Execution - New York Times
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Last edited by mlurp : 04-17-2008 at 01:26 AM.
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  #22 (permalink)  
Old 04-17-2008, 05:15 AM
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The criminal justice system works on probability.

When someone is found guilty after a trial the logic is that they're probably guilty.

The phrase used is a formulation along the lines of, "guilty beyond a reasonable doubt." Note that. It's not "beyond a doubt".

It can never be "beyond a doubt" simply because the jury who hear the evidence presented in a trial have no idea what really happened.

I don't have a problem with the formulation in theory, it works pretty well. But the criminal justice system is sometimes apt to get it spectacularly wrong.

It's pretty easy for the police, for example, to lie and to falsify evidence and to plant evidence.

The videotaping of interviews with suspects and in some cases (particularly murder) much of the investigation is videotaped as it happens by the police.

Videotaping interviews came about because police gradually lost the trust of the courts that they would always tell the truth in court and never produce falsified evidence.

Prosecutors can get things wrong and sometimes they can be malicious, particularly in jurisdictions where they are political appointments and need to be politicians to keep their jobs or advance themselves. The same goes for judges.

So, given all this I, time and time again, can't do anything but come to the conclusion that putting a convicted defendant to death is far too risky. I'll always oppose capital punishment on these grounds. Yes, some people may have committed such horrific crimes that we want them to die. But that assumes the right person was convicted. And we'll never know that the right person was convicted beyond any doubt.

At least if someone is banged up for life we can let them out if we find out later they didn't do it.
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Old 04-17-2008, 06:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bourne View Post
But is it cruel? There are descriptions of botched executions where the inmate was clearly in tremendous pain. That speaks to the issue of constitutionality.

Beyond that is the issue of wrongful conviction. How do you address the possibility of executing someone wrongfully convicted?
As I said I think it is a barbaric practice and I am against it.
However, I would not consider it cruel and unusual punishment in the way of inflicting pain. How many are put under everyday in hospitals for surgery? Is that cruel? Is that painful?
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Old 04-17-2008, 01:24 PM
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I oppose the death penalty for religious/moral reasons. The last time I was called for jury duty, I was questioned as a prospective juror for a capital murder trial. The state was seeking the DP. I expressed my opposition to the DP and was excused.

Having said that, when I hear of a particularly heinous murder, my gut reaction is to want to see the perp who did it fry.
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Old 04-17-2008, 06:29 PM
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Just as acceptable as any other false punishment.
Let's get this straight--to you, death is on the same level as imprisonment?
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Old 04-17-2008, 06:43 PM
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Let's get this straight--to you, death is on the same level as imprisonment?
As they are both acceptable punishments for certain circumstances, so the answer is kind of. They are not on the same level in one sense because death is for more sever crimes.
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Old 04-17-2008, 10:00 PM
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The "acceptable" part is subjective. Get it out of your head, it isn't a logical argument.
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Old 04-17-2008, 10:21 PM
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The "acceptable" part is subjective. Get it out of your head, it isn't a logical argument.
It is acceptable cost of having a justice system. There will be mistakes, not many. It applies to all punishments. If you want a justice system that is the cost you pay. I say that is better than vigilante justice.
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Old 04-17-2008, 11:25 PM
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Originally Posted by xjoe3x View Post
It is acceptable cost of having a justice system. There will be mistakes, not many. It applies to all punishments. If you want a justice system that is the cost you pay. I say that is better than vigilante justice.
How would you feel if you were one of the acceptable mistakes?
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Old 04-17-2008, 11:32 PM
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How would you feel if you were one of the acceptable mistakes?
I would feel pretty damn ****ty being a mistake of the judicial system. But humans are not infallible. We can not just let everyone go free because we may accidentally make a mistake once in a while. Until we can become judicially infallible it mistakes in the judicial system must be a necessary evil, just like taxes.
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