"Worthy"? Are you pulling my leg? In what world, in what reasonable person's mind are the native Americans not worthy of being part of your culture? What you are saying is that native Americans are not "worthy" of keeping their own culture and lands. The idea that they must conform to American society and values is insulting.

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Trust me, I'm a socialist!

There's power in a factory,power in the land, power in the hand of the worker. But it all amounts to nothing if together we don't stand, there is power in a union.
The union forever defending our rights, down with the blackleg, workers unite. To our brothers and our sisters in many far off lands, there is power in a union.
Money speaks for money, the devil for his own. - Billy Bragg

Well, as Hugo knows, this is my pet subject and my achilles heel...because I feel so passionately about it, it's nearly impossible for me to debate it with any semblance of reason or logic. I will try, but don't expect much...

I totally support an independent Scotland.

I don't support asking the rest of Britain anything. We have an ancient agreement with the other three countries in the United Kingdom (those are England, Wales, Northern Ireland) regarding a union called the United Kingdom. I view that treaty in similar terms to the European Union. It served us well for centuries, but is no longer beneficial to Scotland, so I would prefer to disengage and after economic stability is established, consider joining the EU.

Scotland has always retained its status as a different country with a different culture and has always retained separate control of various aspects of government. For example we have always retained our separate and different education system, separate legal system etc. It is a Scottish decision to stay or go, the other countries cannot expect to force Scotland to stay in a disfunctional unit should we not wish to do so.

We already have a devolved Scottish parliament which sits in Edinburgh. People accustomed to the US system of government, have suggested to me that it functions federally (it is not federal exactly but it will give the general concept) - the Scottish parliament currently controls more local issues. Larger common concerns, for example defence, foreign policy, taxation, are still shared and are dealt with by the united government in Westminster Parliament in London. That Parliament is pretty fairly balanced to allow the interests of all four countries to be equally represented. There is weighting to ensure fair representation, it is not proportional representation.

It is a little complicated to explain to outsiders, but basically whereas Scotland has a devolved Scottish Government dealing with local matters, England does not. England is still entirely governed from the common Parliament in Westminster. This means Scottish Members of Parliament vote on issues affecting England, but English Members of Parliament are not present in the Scottish parliament so the English can have no input to local Scottish matters.

This is clearly unfair and is causing all kinds of problems and protests from English people. There is a growing support for separation of the union because of this problem.

What is exacerbating the situation is that the current leader of the Scottish Government (one Alex Salmond) is also head of the Scottish Nationlist party. Now this party's whole raison d'etre is to gain independence for Scotland. Alec Salmond, therefore, is using his position to forward the cause of independence by deliberately introducing all kinds of expensive improvements for Scotland, which must be paid for from common taxation.

England contributes to this taxation, and English people are livid about Salmond's tactics. They feel they are paying for our improvements, but as their own representatives are not securing the same benefits for England, they are receiving nothing themselves.
For example, Salmond plans to completely axe payment for University education in Scotland, it will be free from 2009 if he has his way. But it will not be free in England. Also he is axing prescription charges in Scotland (payment for medicine prescribed by your doctor) but England will still have to pay for theirs.

Plainly if he carries on like this, he will force the issue of independence even further to the fore. IMO it is inevitable, that Scotland will become independent, unless some major changes occur.

Personally, I CAN'T WAIT for it to happen.

That seems to be perfectly logical to me but I don't agree. For a start what makes Scotland different to, say the East Midlands? Scottish people are from the same stock as the English, the idea of a "celtic" race is wrong. there is no such thing, instead of whining about not being "independant" like an angsty teenager why not work with the rest of Britain to make it a better place for everyone?

P.s. sorry i couldn't help winding you up.

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Trust me, I'm a socialist!

There's power in a factory,power in the land, power in the hand of the worker. But it all amounts to nothing if together we don't stand, there is power in a union.
The union forever defending our rights, down with the blackleg, workers unite. To our brothers and our sisters in many far off lands, there is power in a union.
Money speaks for money, the devil for his own. - Billy Bragg

I've heard it all before and more. Careful or I'll call in the rest of the nationalists...
We are not from the same stock. You must come up and visit with us, you will understand then that we have a completely different culture.
I am in London from time to time for business reasons. When I'm there I am in a foreign country, that is how it feels.
We have been very succesful as a union though and the other countries have been good allies. We would hope to retain a close working relationship, but gain independence to improve the economic situation of our own country. The union is no longer working for Scotland.
You don't know me well, but probably you've noticed I am not prone to making unfounded decisions. If you want the full catalogue of reasons for splitting the union, it will take a very long time...

I'm not so sure Viv, being Glaswegian i see a lot of people up north as more foreign to me than people from the old industrial towns in England.

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Viva Fidel

If there ever was in the history of humanity an enemy who was truly universal, an enemy whose acts and moves trouble the entire world, threaten the entire world, attack the entire world in any way or another, that real and really universal enemy is precisely Yankee imperialism

They talk about the failure of socialism but where is the success of capitalism in Africa, Asia and Latin America?

Referendum, definitely. I'm sure it would pass, anyway, and I can definitely understand Scotland wanting independence. However, if most Scots decide in a plebiscite to stay in the UK, it shouldn't be forced on them.

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Whoa, careful now! Chookie will be on later and he is both a fervent nationalist and a cheucter from up North

Hugo, I live 26 miles from you and you have to admit some of your concepts are foreign to me. You're a pretty unusual, original thinker.

Seriously, north of England I don't mind. They are good people and as you say, quite like us. I wouldn't mind drawing the line a bit further south, but you will know that the border has changed many times over the centuries and parts of the north of England have been alternately Scottish and English.

And what you are saying relates to your being a city boy.

Ach, a dinnae ken 'at I did say some of them were like foreigners, not all (i'm trying to dig my way out of this gigantic hole)

For once i dont think there's anything you said i can argue with

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Viva Fidel

If there ever was in the history of humanity an enemy who was truly universal, an enemy whose acts and moves trouble the entire world, threaten the entire world, attack the entire world in any way or another, that real and really universal enemy is precisely Yankee imperialism

They talk about the failure of socialism but where is the success of capitalism in Africa, Asia and Latin America?

Fair enough, you'd know best, although the culture may be different (I've only ever been to Scotland once and that was about 8 years ago) you are the same race.

__________________
Trust me, I'm a socialist!

There's power in a factory,power in the land, power in the hand of the worker. But it all amounts to nothing if together we don't stand, there is power in a union.
The union forever defending our rights, down with the blackleg, workers unite. To our brothers and our sisters in many far off lands, there is power in a union.
Money speaks for money, the devil for his own. - Billy Bragg

Aye, yirinnathole ritedeep uptiyirgiblets inoo Shug. Yibetterhopit ezina good mood wenicomesin.

Reverting back to English forthwith...