Goldwater endorses Obama - Page 3 - Political Fever

Zephyr · #21 (**permalink**) 10-28-2008, 05:56 PM

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The myth that this is somehow a Christian country - and that early America was Christian.

But it isn't at all a myth. America was and largely is a Christian nation. Many of the Founders were not Christians, but the VAST majority of people in this country were and still are Christians. Just because this is how it was back then doesn't mean we should be going back, though...

pjohns · #22 (**permalink**) 10-28-2008, 06:06 PM

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Originally Posted by Jojo

The myth that this is somehow a Christian country -and that early America was Christian.

Well, this is certainly a Christian-majority country; just as most Middle Eastern nations (except, of course, Israel) are Muslim-majority countries. The fact that there is no single, state-sanctioned religion does nothing to vitiate that point.

And I would certainly assert that colonial America was mostly Christian; although, by the time of Revolutionary War America, many of the Founders were Deists.

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Originally Posted by Jojo

The Constitution - read some Jefferson for that one. He was a pretty passionate atheist. Here are some quotes:

Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity.

-Thomas Jefferson, Notes on Virginia, 1782

Question with boldness even the existence of a god; because if there be one he must approve of the homage of reason more than that of blindfolded fear.

-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Peter Carr, August 10, 1787

Where the preamble declares, that coercion is a departure from the plan of the holy author of our religion, an amendment was proposed by inserting "Jesus Christ," so that it would read "A departure from the plan of Jesus Christ, the holy author of our religion;" the insertion was rejected by the great majority, in proof that they meant to comprehend, within the mantle of its protection, the Jew and the Gentile, the Christian and Mohammedan, the Hindoo and Infidel of every denomination.

-Thomas Jefferson, Autobiography, in reference to the Virginia Act for Religious Freedom

I concur with you strictly in your opinion of the comparative merits of atheism and demonism, and really see nothing but the latter in the being worshipped by many who think themselves Christians.

-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Richard Price, Jan. 8, 1789 (Richard Price had written to TJ on Oct. 26. about the harm done by religion and wrote "Would not Society be better without Such religions? Is Atheism less pernicious than Demonism?")

I never submitted the whole system of my opinions to the creed of any party of men whatever in religion, in philosophy, in politics, or in anything else where I was capable of thinking for myself. Such an addiction is the last degradation of a free and moral agent.

-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Francis Hopkinson, March 13, 1789

They [the clergy] believe that any portion of power confided to me, will be exerted in opposition to their schemes. And they believe rightly; for I have sworn upon the altar of god, eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man. But this is all they have to fear from me: and enough, too, in their opinion.

-Thomas Jefferson to Dr. Benjamin Rush, Sept. 23, 1800

Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legislative powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between church and State.

-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Danbury Baptist Association, CT., Jan. 1, 1802

History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance of which their civil as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purposes.

-Thomas Jefferson to Alexander von Humboldt, Dec. 6, 1813.

The whole history of these books [the Gospels] is so defective and doubtful that it seems vain to attempt minute enquiry into it: and such tricks have been played with their text, and with the texts of other books relating to them, that we have a right, from that cause, to entertain much doubt what parts of them are genuine. In the New Testament there is internal evidence that parts of it have proceeded from an extraordinary man; and that other parts are of the fabric of very inferior minds. It is as easy to separate those parts, as to pick out diamonds from dunghills.

-Thomas Jefferson, letter to John Adams, January 24, 1814

Christianity neither is, nor ever was a part of the common law.

-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Dr. Thomas Cooper, February 10, 1814

In every country and in every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot, abetting his abuses in return for protection to his own.

-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Horatio G. Spafford, March 17, 1814

I have seen this compilation of quotes previously--or something very close to it, anyway. It indicates to me that (1) Jefferson had very little use for religious hypocrites; and (2) he rejected the idea of our having an established state religion. As regarding which, I agree with him, on both counts.

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Originally Posted by Jojo

I am talking about our foundation - not just the handful of men who wrote the documents. Our foundation was far broader than those few individuals - and those you chose to ignore have had an impact on this country,too.

That "handful of men who wrote the [foundational] documents"--a.k.a. the Founders--are the ones who principally concern me, rather than others, who came later, and are largely lost to history.

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Originally Posted by Jojo

And that included the Virgina colonists - who were most definitely not Puritans. It includes - from the very start - Americans of many religious backgrounds - and an America that rejected a state religion.

Again, you have interjected the Puritans into the conversation. Just why, I have no idea--unless it is for the purpose of creating a straw man that can easily be set aflame.

Moreover, to reject a state religion is far from tantamount to rejecting any influence that a Judeo-Christian worldview may impart; the latter being entirely independent of any doctrinal or Scriptural teachings.

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Originally Posted by Jojo

Yes, check out the log in your eye before you worry about the mote in mine. To create a theocracy - for any reason - is still to create a theocracy. Your belief that your religion is real and true while theirs i false, is not a deciding factor. This is not, nor has it ever been, a Christian country.

I certainly have no desire to look for a mote in your eye. If you feel that I have been unkind in anything that I have said, that was certainly not my intention.

The very loose word of the word "theocracy" is most unfortunate. A theocracy, as I understand the term, is a government that is run according to the principles outlined in the preferred Holy Book; and I am unalterably opposed to any such authoritarian scheme. But to say that it is acceptable--even a very good thing--for a Christian worldview to inform policy decisions, totally apart from any Scriptural references, is quite another matter.

HenryDavidThoreau · #23 (**permalink**) 10-28-2008, 06:39 PM

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Originally Posted by pjohns

Two points come to mind here:

(1) Any appeal to pragmatism is badly misplaced, whenever it is directed at me. As anyone who knows me at all will attest, I have no use for the principle-free doctrine of pragmatism. Rather, I believe in hard-and-fast, neutral principles--even when I find them personally inconvenient.

You obviously do not have a grasp of what pragmatism is. Its principles are logic, reason and empirical evidence. To base policy on what is proven to work most effectively. You prove my point that social conservatives reject what is factual or empirical and rather base their beliefs based on how it ought to be.
An example (of many) would be the teaching of creationism in public schools, something that lacks any empirical evidence to the support it, while the theory of evolution does.

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(2) To declare that social conservatives believe that "the views of a majority" should be "enforced on the public via the government" is to attempt to make the case that social conservatives believe (somewhat crazily) in pure majoritarianism.

I am trying hard to find a social conservative policy that does not inflict the majority's (moral superiority) authority over the minority.

Initiated prayer in school (individual already has the right to pray).
Censorship of movies, books and music over the years.
Creationism in schools.
Prohibition of sexual materials/contraceptions/toys over the years
Alcohol laws.
Faith based initatives.
Sodomy laws.
List goes on and on...

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But that is simply untrue. Rather, social conservatives generally believe (as I certainly do) that thousands of years of human history provide a much better indicator of acceptable and unacceptable behavior than do the progressive musings of today's Advanced Thinkers.

I would put progressivism under the same umbrella as social conservatism as basing policy based on raw emotion, and how things ought to be, rather than base policy on what is logical, rational and proven to work. Progressivism=/=pragmatism.

Jojo · #24 (**permalink**) 10-28-2008, 07:50 PM

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Originally Posted by Chan

In other words, Goldwater's grandchildren (the title of this thread is DECEPTIVE) are going against granddad's principles and supporting a big government nanny stater interventionist (they would have done the same by supporting McCain).

How dare they claim to speak for Barry Goldwater!

I kinda figured anyone who knew who Goldwater was would know he hasn't come back from the grave.

I assume his kids and grandkids knew his feelings more than you would - unless you were close?

Jojo · #25 (**permalink**) 10-28-2008, 07:52 PM

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Originally Posted by Zephyr

But it isn't at all a myth. America was and largely is a Christian nation. Many of the Founders were not Christians, but the VAST majority of people in this country were and still are Christians. Just because this is how it was back then doesn't mean we should be going back, though...

Zeph - America at it's inception was multicultural as all h*ll - multireligious too!

Finny · #26 (**permalink**) 10-28-2008, 08:02 PM

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Originally Posted by Jojo

I kinda figured anyone who knew who Goldwater was would know he hasn't come back from the grave.

I assume his kids and grandkids knew his feelings more than you would - unless you were close?

His son backed Ron Paul. But remember family don't know his feelings as he's dead unless they talk to the dead. But we can read up on Barry Goldwater and his stances and see he was anti-big government and ran against LBJ who proposed the lofty spending of the 60s which become known as the Butter and Guns era.

So lets go over some of Barry Goldwater's famous speeches..

"Those who seek absolute power, even though they seek it to do what they regard as good, are simply demanding the right to enforce their own version of heaven on earth. And let me remind you, they are the very ones who always create the most hellish tyrannies. Absolute power does corrupt, and those who seek it must be suspect and must be opposed. Their mistaken course stems from false notions of equality, ladies and gentlemen. Equality, rightly understood, as our founding fathers understood it, leads to liberty and to the emancipation of creative differences. Wrongly understood, as it has been so tragically in our time, it leads first to conformity and then to despotism." - 1964 Republican Convention.

"My faith in the future rests squarely on the belief that man, if he doesn't first destroy himself, will find new answers in the universe, new technologies, new disciplines, which will contribute to a vastly different and better world in the twenty-first century. Recalling what has happened in my short lifetime in the fields of communication and transportation and the life sciences, I marvel at the pessimists who tell us that we have reached the end of our productive capacity, who project a future of primarily dividing up what we now have and making do with less. To my mind the single essential element on which all discoveries will be dependent is human freedom." - With No Apologies (1979)

"If he'd let his wife run business, I think he'd be better off." - Goldwater on Hillary Clinton (Washington Post July 28th 1994)

"Most Americans have no real understanding of the operations of the international moneylenders... the accounts of the Federal Reserve have never been audited. It operates outside the control of Congress and ... manipulates the credit of the United States." as quoted in The Money Masters (1995)

"For the past twenty-five years the apostles of the welfare state, some Republicans, some Democrat, have been busy transforming that stern old gentleman with the top hat, the cutaway coat, the red, white, and blue trousers, from a symbol of dignity and freedom and justice for all men, into a national wet nurse, dispensing a cockeyed kind of patent medcine labeled "something for nothing," passing out the soothing syrup and rattles and pacifiers for grateful votes on election day." - Barry Goldwater

"I have little interest in streamlining government or in making it more efficient, for I mean to reduce its size. I do not undertake to promote welfare, for I propose to extend freedom. My aim is not to pass laws, but to repeal them. It is not to inaugurate new programs, but to cancel old ones that do violence to the Constitution or that have failed their purpose, or that impose on the people an unwarranted financial burden. I will not attempt to discover whether legislation is "needed" before I have first determined whether it is constitutionally permissible. And if I should later be attacked for neglecting my constituents "interests," I shall reply that I was informed that their main interest is liberty and that in that cause I am doing the very best I can." - Barry Goldwater

Goldwater speech

CC has not clue who he was or what he stood for.

Zephyr · #27 (**permalink**) 10-28-2008, 08:39 PM

Yes, Finny-clearly laws forcing Southern States, AS PER THE AUTHORITY GIVEN CONGRESS IN THE 13th, 14th, and 15th AMENDMENTS, represent a seizure of absolute power.

Finny · #28 (**permalink**) 10-28-2008, 09:41 PM

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Originally Posted by Zephyr

Yes, Finny-clearly laws forcing Southern States, AS PER THE AUTHORITY GIVEN CONGRESS IN THE 13th, 14th, and 15th AMENDMENTS, represent a seizure of absolute power.

What are you on about? Oh wait I know.. you are going to assume Barry Goldwater was racist (which would be ironic since JoJo is claiming Barry Goldwater supports Obama through his Granddaughter CC)..

You do know that Barry Goldwater desegregated the Arizona National Guard before President Truman did it for the National Military? That when Barry Goldwater was a City Council member in Phoenix, he was a founding member of the Arizona NAACP and was a member to his death? That he supported a Constitutional amendment banning a Poll Tax..

People assume too many things about Goldwater. He was against the 1964 Civil Rights act because he felt you can't legislate morality which is now the lefts mantra on many social issues (like gay rights, gay marriage and so on). He was ahead of the game Social issues. Yet some how, it takes a kid, a pot-head nonetheless, who gets public edumacation who assumes racism right of the bat. Instead of reading up on the issue from neutral sources.

The Absolute Power he was talking about was the power that came from the era of FDR and LBJ.

Zephyr · #29 (**permalink**) 10-28-2008, 10:06 PM

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What are you on about? Oh wait I know.. you are going to assume Barry Goldwater was racist (which would be ironic since JoJo is claiming Barry Goldwater supports Obama through his Granddaughter CC)..

Well, yes, we all know Barry Goldwater and his grandson are the exact same person. But yeah, it'd be ironic.

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You do know that Barry Goldwater desegregated the Arizona National Guard before President Truman did it for the National Military? That when Barry Goldwater was a City Council member in Phoenix, he was a founding member of the Arizona NAACP and was a member to his death? That he supported a Constitutional amendment banning a Poll Tax..

Okay, I never said he was a racist. These things don't really mean he wasn't a racist, though...

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People assume too many things about Goldwater. He was against the 1964 Civil Rights act because he felt you can't legislate morality which is now the lefts mantra on many social issues (like gay rights, gay marriage and so on). He was ahead of the game Social issues. Yet some how, it takes a kid, a pot-head nonetheless, who gets public edumacation who assumes racism right of the bat. Instead of reading up on the issue from neutral sources.

Yes, that's what he said. Funny, though, that once again you're just bringing up my age instead of making any real points (and putting words in my mouth). The Civil Rights Act was not unconstitutional, as Congress was given the power to enforce the 13th, 14th, and 15th Amendments with whatever legislation it deemed necessary inside those actual amendments. The Civil Rights Act only created more firm protections for the rights of citizens as laid out in those Amendments. Actually, I dislike Goldwater because he was an enemy of organized labor and the proletariat. He opposed unions, welfare, and the New Deal legacy, which is enough for me.

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The Absolute Power he was talking about was the power that came from the era of FDR and LBJ.

Neither of whom took any kind of Absolute Power at all.

Finny · #30 (**permalink**) 10-28-2008, 10:19 PM

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Originally Posted by Zephyr

Yes, that's what he said. Funny, though, that once again you're just bringing up my age instead of making any real points (and putting words in my mouth). The Civil Rights Act was not unconstitutional, as Congress was given the power to enforce the 13th, 14th, and 15th Amendments with whatever legislation it deemed necessary inside those actual amendments. The Civil Rights Act only created more firm protections for the rights of citizens as laid out in those Amendments. Actually, I dislike Goldwater because he was an enemy of organized labor and the proletariat. He opposed unions, welfare, and the New Deal legacy, which is enough for me.

Neither of whom took any kind of Absolute Power at all.

Nowhere in the 13th,14th or 15th amendments does it give Congress the right to create Welfare.. if you read the 14th Amendment..

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Originally Posted by 14th Amendment, Section 1

Section 1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

The Amendment assumes the Federal Government will be protectors of the bold text. That means when the Federal Government created a Welfare system it violated the 14th Amendment as it does not provide due process and it denies equal protection as most middle class and upper class citizens are denied access to the Welfare program, thus violating their protection of equal rights. The 14th Amendment also contradicts the 16th Amendment which allows Congress the ability to levy a progressive tax which violates equal protection. As Congress classes people as unequal, the upper class pays more taxes then the middle class and the middle class pays more the the lower class which violates equal protection.

Chew on that for a bit.

Thank you for proving my point. Goldwater is spinning in his grave right now at the fact that CC Goldwater would invoke his name for a Socialist like Obama.

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