Originally Posted by Jojo

Don't be silly. To begin with you are simply glorifying one strand in a blanket to suit your myths. There is no doubt that there was a significant native presence that predate Xtianitywith a pagan/animist worldview - that also is a chief underpinning. Natives of muslim countries were brought here as slaves from the beginning, as well as natives with animist underpinnings. Then there were the Buddhists that came from Asia to build railroads, and the catholics from Spain, and later Ireland. Yes, hindu, sikh and a few others came later. BTW - Columbus probably had some Jews with him, too. Why do they not count? Why is it only the Puritans you objectify as true Americans, when Virginia colony predated them - and they were not notably religious folks?

Originally Posted by Jojo

No problem - except in deciding which world view should prevail. Clearly, as there were many worldviews on this continent through history, and there are many that still exist. Why should the Christian worldview that you hold so dear be made into a law that restricts others? Isn't that the logic of the Taliban?

Originally Posted by herasday

Not a surprise. Goldwater was working with and to have co-authored John Dean's book "Conservatives without Conscience" but passed away before it was completed.

If I remember correctly, Dean dedicated the book to Goldwater and I know he mentions him several times in the book.

John Dean, for those younger or not steeped in politics, who may not recognize the name, was Richard Nixon's counsel, is a long time Republican, although I think at this time he said he has dropped party affiliation on his registration. Other books he has written about the Republican neocon and religious fundamentalist matters in the Republican administrations and in particular, Bush administration are "Worse than Watergate" and "Broken Government".

Originally Posted by Finny

Barry Goldwater's granddaughter endorses Obama it's newsworthy..

Barry Goldwater's son endorses Ron Paul it's not newsworthy.

Hmm..

Originally Posted by pjohns

The myth that this is somehow a Christian country - and that early America was Christian.

The Constitution - read some Jefferson for that one. He was a pretty passionate atheist. Here are some quotes:


Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity.

-Thomas Jefferson, Notes on Virginia, 1782


Question with boldness even the existence of a god; because if there be one he must approve of the homage of reason more than that of blindfolded fear.

-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Peter Carr, August 10, 1787


Where the preamble declares, that coercion is a departure from the plan of the holy author of our religion, an amendment was proposed by inserting "Jesus Christ," so that it would read "A departure from the plan of Jesus Christ, the holy author of our religion;" the insertion was rejected by the great majority, in proof that they meant to comprehend, within the mantle of its protection, the Jew and the Gentile, the Christian and Mohammedan, the Hindoo and Infidel of every denomination.

-Thomas Jefferson, Autobiography, in reference to the Virginia Act for Religious Freedom


I concur with you strictly in your opinion of the comparative merits of atheism and demonism, and really see nothing but the latter in the being worshipped by many who think themselves Christians.

-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Richard Price, Jan. 8, 1789 (Richard Price had written to TJ on Oct. 26. about the harm done by religion and wrote "Would not Society be better without Such religions? Is Atheism less pernicious than Demonism?")


I never submitted the whole system of my opinions to the creed of any party of men whatever in religion, in philosophy, in politics, or in anything else where I was capable of thinking for myself. Such an addiction is the last degradation of a free and moral agent.

-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Francis Hopkinson, March 13, 1789


They [the clergy] believe that any portion of power confided to me, will be exerted in opposition to their schemes. And they believe rightly; for I have sworn upon the altar of god, eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man. But this is all they have to fear from me: and enough, too, in their opinion.

-Thomas Jefferson to Dr. Benjamin Rush, Sept. 23, 1800


Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legislative powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between church and State.

-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Danbury Baptist Association, CT., Jan. 1, 1802


History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance of which their civil as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purposes.

-Thomas Jefferson to Alexander von Humboldt, Dec. 6, 1813.


The whole history of these books [the Gospels] is so defective and doubtful that it seems vain to attempt minute enquiry into it: and such tricks have been played with their text, and with the texts of other books relating to them, that we have a right, from that cause, to entertain much doubt what parts of them are genuine. In the New Testament there is internal evidence that parts of it have proceeded from an extraordinary man; and that other parts are of the fabric of very inferior minds. It is as easy to separate those parts, as to pick out diamonds from dunghills.

-Thomas Jefferson, letter to John Adams, January 24, 1814


Christianity neither is, nor ever was a part of the common law.

-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Dr. Thomas Cooper, February 10, 1814


In every country and in every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot, abetting his abuses in return for protection to his own.

-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Horatio G. Spafford, March 17, 1814

I am talking about our foundation - not just the handful of men who wrote the documents. Our foundation was far broader than those few individuals - and those you chose to ignore have had an impact on this country,too.


And that included the Virgina colonists - who were most definitely not Puritans. It includes - from the very start - Americans of many religious backgrounds - and an America that rejected a state religion.

Yes, check out the log in your eye before you worry about the mote in mine. To create a theocracy - for any reason - is still to create a theocracy. Your belief that your religion is real and true while theirs i false, is not a deciding factor. This is not, nor has it ever been, a Christian country.

Originally Posted by Jojo

Here's the family history - from an Arizonan. I've lived here for longer than McCain. Barry G considered Mccain a carpetbagger with a rich trophy wife at first - he really made no secret of the fact. He finally warmed to the McCains, and they had something of a friendship, as well as an excellent work relationship. Then came the Keating 5 scandal - and that broke the families apart. Goldwater hated McCain after that - feeling he had dragged down the reputation of the entire state - and believing he got off too easy. After that, he never saw McCain as a conservative. I think McCain did reform himself more in Goldwater's mold after G died - but then the republican party left it's conservative roots.

I think the opinion's here about true conservatism, from a Goldwater who has always voted republican - are worth sharing.


Why McCain Has Lost Our Vote


CC Goldwater
Posted October 23, 2008 | 10:28 AM (EST)

Being Barry Goldwater's granddaughter and living in Arizona, one would assume that I would be voting for our state's senator, John McCain. I am still struck by certain 'dyed in the wool' Republicans who are on the fence this election, as it seems like a no-brainer to me.

Myself, along with my siblings and a few cousins, will not be supporting the Republican presidential candidates this year. We believe strongly in what our grandfather stood for: honesty, integrity, and personal freedom, free from political maneuvering and fear tactics. I learned a lot about my grandfather while producing the documentary, Mr. Conservative Goldwater on Goldwater. Our generation of Goldwaters expects government to provide for constitutional protections. We reject the constant intrusion into our personal lives, along with other crucial policy issues of the McCain/Palin ticket.

My grandfather (Paka) would never suggest denying a woman's right to choose. My grandmother co-founded Planned Parenthood in Arizona in the 1930's, a cause my grandfather supported. I'm not sure about how he would feel about marriage rights based on same-sex orientation. I think he would feel that love and respect for ones privacy is what matters most and not the intolerance and poor judgment displayed by McCain over the years. Paka respected our civil liberties and passed on the message that that we should conduct our lives standing up for the basic freedoms we hold so dear.

For a while, there were several candidates who aligned themselves with the Goldwater version of Conservative thought. My grandfather had undying respect for the U.S. Constitution, and an understanding of its true meanings.

There always have been a glimmer of hope that someday, someone would "race through the gate" full steam in Goldwater style. Unfortunately, this hasn't happened, and the Republican brand has been tarnished in a shameless effort to gain votes and appeal to the lowest emotion, fear. Nothing about McCain, except for maybe a uniform, compares to the same ideology of what Goldwater stood for as a politician. The McCain/Palin plan is to appear diverse and inclusive, using women and minorities to push an agenda that makes us all financially vulnerable, fearful, and less safe.

When you see the candidate's in political ads, you can't help but be reminded of the 1964 presidential campaign of Johnson/Goldwater, the 'origin of spin', that twists the truth and obscures what really matters. Nothing about the Republican ticket offers the hope America needs to regain it's standing in the world, that's why we're going to support Barack Obama. I think that Obama has shown his ability and integrity.

After the last eight years, there's a lot of clean up do. Roll up your sleeves, Senators Obama and Biden, and we Goldwaters will roll ours up with you.

CC Goldwater: Why McCain Has Lost Our Vote

Originally Posted by SamInTheSouth

The Republican Party has been hijacked by the religious right and the neocons. If Barry Goldwater were still alive he would be extremely disappointed.

Originally Posted by pjohns

I consider myself a neoconservative; and I have no problem at all with those who hold deep religious beliefs, and who believe that their worldview should inform policy decisions.

But Goldwater was essentially a libertarian; so he held some views (especially on social issues) with which I disagree. And as he aged, he seemed to become more intolerant of the views of his fellow Republicans, with whom he disagreed. I find this unfortunate.

In the end, I have mixed feelings about Sen. Goldwater. Admittedly, I have more positive feelings than negative ones about him. But I disagree sharply with the anti-social conservative views that he held.

Originally Posted by HenryDavidThoreau

So what you are saying is that the views of a majority (usually religion based) should be enforced on the public via the government regardless of what is truely pragmatic. That is how I interpret social-conservatism, or at least what it is in practice.