Cause they are.

__________________
Pioneers are walking all around singing songs about Lenin and they should be shot for it.

Handlebars

"If you are looking for the guilty, you need only look into a mirror"- V

It is inaccurate to say that I hate everything. I am strongly in favor of common sense, common honesty, and common decency. This makes me forever ineligible for public office.
H. L. Mencken

come on you know you wanna play football..

Beagán agus a rá go maith.

Economic Left/Right: 3.75
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -2.87

And yet Volker did the opposite of Greenspan, taking us into a recession with high interest rates to solve the mess created by Nixon and Ford while Greenspan placated the Bush regime by gutting the future of the economy with near zero interest rates.

And some how you see them as two sides of the same coin.

__________________
I'm Proud I never Voted For Bush!



PAT PAULSEN FOR PRESIDENT

Because both played god with the market. The Fed plays god in the market dictating how the market plays out. In a Free Market, there would be no Fed.

__________________
Pioneers are walking all around singing songs about Lenin and they should be shot for it.

Handlebars

"If you are looking for the guilty, you need only look into a mirror"- V

It is inaccurate to say that I hate everything. I am strongly in favor of common sense, common honesty, and common decency. This makes me forever ineligible for public office.
H. L. Mencken

come on you know you wanna play football..

Beagán agus a rá go maith.

Economic Left/Right: 3.75
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -2.87

There's already a topic on this in the Economics section.

__________________
"Moreover, I am cognizant of the interrelatedness of all communities and states...Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere. We are caught in an inescapable network of mutuality, tied in a single garment of destiny. Whatever affects one directly, affects all indirectly. Never again can we afford to live with the narrow, provincial "outside agitator" idea. Anyone who lives inside the United States can never be considered an outsider anywhere within its bounds."



~Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.

Hahahahahahaha....it's the job of the FED to regulate....

Volker cleaned up the inflation mess but Greenspan created the credit crunch and you think they are the same because they both regulated the economy.

Prior to the FED having any real control the economy swung up and down in boom and bust cycles. the last such cycle ended with the great depression. That's what you want?

__________________
I'm Proud I never Voted For Bush!



PAT PAULSEN FOR PRESIDENT

Oh joy!

__________________
I'm Proud I never Voted For Bush!



PAT PAULSEN FOR PRESIDENT

And that's the point Affayer... as I've said before.. everyone wants the upside but no risk. In Economics there is a cycle for every Industry. What Greenspan did was just as dirty as what Volker did. Volker and Greenspan both pushed the economy into a growth cycle too early. Volker felt the Fed could decide interest rates.. and Greenspan felt inflation was ok thus allowing a credit boom.

Both did not allow the market to reset its levels to fair value. Thus creating a big boom and a horrible bust.

Volker didn't allow the Dow to reach 1953 or 1962 levels (depending on what you think is fair value) and Greenspan did not allow the levels reset to the 1978 level.. during the early 90's. They both wanted growth no matter what.. and the President pushed them to see it that way. As Jobs and money keeps people happy.

I am starting to think we need to rough this out down below 4k on the Dow, just to make future growth, honest growth.. but we put our bottom in at 7800.

Thus in the future we will have another bubble because no political or Fed member wants to be honest.

__________________
Pioneers are walking all around singing songs about Lenin and they should be shot for it.

Handlebars

"If you are looking for the guilty, you need only look into a mirror"- V

It is inaccurate to say that I hate everything. I am strongly in favor of common sense, common honesty, and common decency. This makes me forever ineligible for public office.
H. L. Mencken

come on you know you wanna play football..

Beagán agus a rá go maith.

Economic Left/Right: 3.75
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -2.87

There are risks and then there are risks. An unregulated market has the risk of opportunism, piracy, that is unacceptable.

We are not going through a business cycle now. Take a look at it this way. Everyday this country puts up 5,000 commercial jets that fly passengers and freight. We expect, under normal wear and tear, for this fleet to break down. We can compensate for that with scheduled maintenance. That is a risk that is acceptable. But what happens when we abuse those jets so that wear and tear exceeds predicted usage but we don't compensate with accellerated maintenance? Now that is a risk that is unacceptable.

This is what happened under Bush/Greenspan. Greenspan accelerated the mortgage market with ultra low interest rates. Bush failed to increase regulatory forces to compensate for that acceleration. In fact Bush reduced regulation and therefore exasperated the gathering storm of what they now call "toxic" loans. There is a NORMAL risk that a mortgage loan will not be paid off and that risk is acceptable. But Bush's failure as an administrator increased that risk in an alarming fashion.

So in answer to your objection, I accept NORMAL risk but I reject increased risk caused by Bush's maladministration.

That is simply not true. Volker's actions increased the health of the economy while Greenspan gutted the health of the economy. Volker used the FED to correct mistakes made in prior administrations. Greenspan created mistakes that now must be corrected in future administrations. To say the two are the same is to say the person who uses a gun in self defense is the same as one who uses it to commit a crime.

Nonsense...babble...

Duh...it can.

Hahahahahahahahahaha...Volker fought inflation and Greenspan set the early stages for spiraling inflation yet you think they are the same.

You mean they didn't allow the economic system to crash?

Is that what you want, for the market to crash and reset itself?

Hahahahahahahahaha....you just said that backwards. It is the interference of the FED that has prevented boom and bust cycles...

HELLO! Volker brought on a recession as a result of high interest rates he used in his fight against inflation while Greenspan propped up Bush's weak economy with super low interest rates. The two are complete opposites!

Then explain why we lost so many jobs under Bush. Were people happy?

By all means, crash the market...that's certainly a creative solution.

Unlike the Tech Bubble, the recent bubble in the banking industry was not caused by market forces. You do a disservice by confusing the two...

__________________
I'm Proud I never Voted For Bush!



PAT PAULSEN FOR PRESIDENT

Risk is Risk.. there is no two different definitions.



Yes, we are. Look at the Housing Market from 1997-2007.. You had 10 years of huge rise in home values, now we are going back to normal housing prices prior to the huge boom. That is a cycle. You can even go back from 1986-1996 as another example of a housing cycle.

Chart of housing prices in San Diego over the last 20 years



Wrong, even with all the maintenance it does not end risk. Risk is still there. There are pilots and so on. The pilot of the economy is the Fed.


That's what Greenspan did. Bush did ask for increased oversight on Fannie and Freddie. John McCain sponsored the Federal Housing Enterprise Regulatory Reform Act of 2005. Read about it here

My question to you is, if Congress doesn't act what can a President do? Nothing. So how is this just Bush's fault? Why is it not the fault of Chris Dodd, Barney Frank and folks like Frank Raines who ran Fannie Mae into the ground.. Oh I know.. because you think a Democrat could never do that. Get your bias bs out of here.



Both actions were to stir the pot of the economy. Both actions gave "false" numbers in order to start up the economy. Rates can change at anytime, thus the economy can be manipulated at any time by any Fed Board. Once you realize that Affrayer, you will come to find any growth in the economy is based on what the Fed does with rates. Today they will cut rates again, down to 1% (maybe 1.25%). The Stock Market will rise, is that real growth? No. It's manipulated growth to spur on an economy.



Sorry, I broke it down for you above.



Why did Volker have to fight inflation? Because earlier Fed Boards cut rates. See a conflict of interest yet?

Greenspan didn't set a stage for spiraling inflation. Show me inflation rates since September 2008, there very little. By way here is a chart for you.. Yearly inflation since 1997 has never been over 3.40%.

So where was that spiraling inflation you were talking about? For inflation to spiral out of control you need 2 things. 1) low interest rates and 2) huge increase in money supply. Greenspan never increased money supply in such a manner.

But Bernanke has done both in the last 9 months, and in a year or 2.. you will see hyper-inflation.

But again it's action of the FED that causes this. The Fed once again is stirrin' the pot of the economy. Thus you have endless Government involved in interest rates.







Economic systems don't crash. Stock Markets do. I could careless about the Stock Market as its buy and selling shares in companies in which owners of those shares take no responsibility for. I.E. Be a check and balance to payments to CEOs and the companies books.

Let the Stock Market crash one time like it's suppose to so we have corrections in our actions and I am sure as hell it will never happen again.


It needs to happen. We need to get to 1996/1997 levels and start over with truth growth. We have to get rid of the growth in the bubble and start over.





And that's the problem. They get involved in a cycle instead of letting the cycle play out. When you do this you never ever get rid of the false growth. So everything that is built upon that false growth is not real growth. You don't half tear a home in half and build a new half to match the one you tear down.




It was the Fed getting involved that brought those things on, did it not? You obviously agree with me as you put in big red font. You just are connecting the dots yet. So let me help out your feeble economic mind.


Volker and Greenspan were chairmans of what? The Fed...





Because oh I don't know.. 10 years of a housing bubble that burst? Which was based on a half popped bubble in the early 90's. Which was also based on a half burst housing bubble from the late mid 70s to the mid 80s.. (S&L crisis)..



And your solution ends up repeating itself. Imagine that..



Yes, it was. The Fed is a "market force", people not paying their FVCKING mortgages is a market force, increased money supply is a market force, short selling is a market force (which I proudly do)...

__________________
Pioneers are walking all around singing songs about Lenin and they should be shot for it.

Handlebars

"If you are looking for the guilty, you need only look into a mirror"- V

It is inaccurate to say that I hate everything. I am strongly in favor of common sense, common honesty, and common decency. This makes me forever ineligible for public office.
H. L. Mencken

come on you know you wanna play football..

Beagán agus a rá go maith.

Economic Left/Right: 3.75
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -2.87

Good, buy a house in Harlem or North Philly...your naivete is boundless.

A predictable long-term pattern of alternating periods of economic growth (recovery) and decline (recession), characterized by changing employment, industrial productivity, and interest rates. Nope, the housing market was a pimple caused by the FED dropping interest rates to near zero.

Again you're a mish mosh of false ideas and definitions.

No one said it does. Since you fail to grasp concepts in even the most simplified example I'll let it go at that.

Hahahahahahahahahahaha....Bush also said he was a uniter and not a divider. Meanwhile Bush moved 1800 FBI agents away from regulating the banks.

Duh...he could have moved those 1800 FBI agents back...

Hahahahahahahahahahaha...stir the pot....is that some kind of technical term?

Hahahahahahahahahahaha...stir the pot! Nonsense and babble...

Nope, because Nixon printed money by the boat load. You just keep getting it wrong.

Duh....it's called a depression.

Nope. We went 80 years without such a crash...

Hahahahahahahahahahahaha....it's the military that brought on war, are you saying we should get rid of all guns?

It is the misuse of the FED and Monetary System with neat right wing ideas that caused the problems...

Do you understand the difference? You can kill yourself by ingesting a handful of salt at one time. According to you we should then ban salt. Nonsense Babble...

__________________
I'm Proud I never Voted For Bush!



PAT PAULSEN FOR PRESIDENT