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Originally Posted by Finny
I am being very objective. If I wasn't objective I would be saying the IRA can do no wrong.
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That is the whole direction of your argument.
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I can give my sympathy to poor person but its not going to make them rich.
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THIS is rich - you want sympathy from me for a cause which thinks nothing of bombing my people. Way to enlist support.
You can get off, you will not tell me or mine what to do. I don't agree with your methods, you will get nothing until they change. That is my opinion and with normal, civilised people I am entitled to hold it.
I have my own cause to progress, but I don't kill Irish people to progress it, that is a ridiculous and selfish premise.
And it is hard to sympathise with someone who wants to kill you. No matter if he has the gift of the gab.
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Yeah, I can give names of of people died just by rubber bullets.
You had to be at least 16 to be in the IRA. Look at that list and tell me how many do you think were in the IRA?
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Yes, that is wrong.
Sure you know the technical details better than I.
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The Irish Defense Force did not go to Scotland to take over your country.
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The UK union did it, however.
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So, you do not take an Oath to the Queen?
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No. Nor do I stand for the national anthem.
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Laws passed in Westminster have no effect on you?
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Some. Scotland has its own parliament now dealing with many issues. It has given a platform for the nationalist party to work from and you know that is increasing in power.
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You have your own Scottish Army?
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Yes, we have a military force which is currently part of the UK force. The Scottish regiments are retained, based in Scotland and can devolve as easily as the rest of the union.
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You have your own economy?
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Scots are active in the UK economy, ask RBS.
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You have your own Currency?
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Scotland has always retained its own currency.
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You can refuse to send troops to wars which those in Westminster gets involved with?
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Defence decisions are shared. We have as much ability as you do in the US and more, in fact - We have the ability to vote the UK government out of Scottish Parliament in protest, as we did after the unwanted Iraq war, and make them think twice as they need our support in the General Elections.
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So tell me what has Scotland done with Political means?
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It has put Scottish people at the head of government in the UK for a long time now and presumably those people are looking out for Scottish interests.
The country is economically strong, nobody is starving, we live in a democracy and have a decent standard of living. There are social issues, you have those in every society.
No terrorism was involved and the majority of Scots are happy with this arrangement. What is it you want? For us to do what only a minority of our people actually want at the moment?
But...that would be oppression. And WRONG.
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I can show you what violent means gets you.. Its called United States of America, Republic of Ireland, Rhodesia (now Zimbabwe), and Israel.
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Israel...US...you will have to clarify this, no idea what your point is. But the UK and Zimbabwe (cheers for assuming I don't know about the name change, if you ever read anything in the other place you would know it is one of my favourite topics) are poles apart in living conditions for their people.
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Doesn't matter. The Labour Party is part of the English establishment. That part has accepted English rule in Scotland. 
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Lol...it is part of the UK establishment. England does not rule in Scotland.
Scotland has more democratic power than England at the moment.
(it has outflanked the British Government by political means) I am sure you know this, but Scotland currently votes on and affects decisions on English matters, where England HAS NO VOTE AT ALL AND NO POWER over Scottish matters in the devolved Scottish government.
England does not rule anywhere, there is not even an Englishman at the top, and the UK government is democratic and weighted for equality.
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Because they agree with English rule. They say God Save the Queen as they look for a pay check from Westminster.
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W/e
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So because its the law makes it right? It was the law to trade slaves and enslave people, that didn't make it right. It was the law (Penal Laws) to take land from Catholics and give it to Protestant landlords. It was a right to take tonnes of food from Ireland so the those in England could partake in gluttony while the Irish (who harvested this food) were starving.
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I think I said this: "It is the law.
I don't accept it is right, but I don't accept the violent way is going to work for the Irish."
Work within the system. There is a political system in place, get in there, get elected, say what needs said to get that done and then use the position of power to change things.
There may have been a case for violence in the past, but that is over.
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You know what political means has gotten Ireland? Nothing. Its been 10 years since the Good Friday Agreement (Belfast Agreement) and Northern Ireland is still ruled by Westminster. Sectarian violence has gone up.
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So? Half this time has been spent suspending the Irish political process because of medieval entrenched, stubborn idiots who cannot move forward in the process. If they want to waste time like that, nothing is what they will get.
British and Loyalist collusion
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What are you on about? As long as Scotland was part of the UK and the British Government was still in Northern Ireland.. Scotland will remain a legitimate target. It had nothing to do with taking over anyone or anybody.. its was about getting the British Government out of Ireland. End of Story.
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I don't know, what are YOU on about? Did I say anyone wanted to take over?
As you have insulted me with accusations of Britishness, I will return that by saying your thinking is completely Irish. Scotland is in a similar position to NI. You think Scots should stand up and fight English occupation (which does not exist) but you are going to attack Scotland? Because what? In your theory...Scotland is completely powerless. So what logic is there in bombing it?
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And I gave you a list of countries that proved you wrong. You can even throw Afghanistan, South Africa, India, and Pakistan on to that list.
Nobody has outflanked the British Government by political means.
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And I gave you the current Scottish government, ruling the UK for 10years.
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You are such a British Tool.
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This is out of line. I am not British.
But I like it when you talk dirty.
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Those Irish that mindlessly ran around from 1916-1921, have a country of their own. Hell, they should have the whole Island, but because of political means (Anglo-Irish treaty) 6 counties remain in English hands.
So sell your political means bit elsewhere.
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I am selling nothing. Carry on doing it the hard way. But don't expect support from the families of the innocent people you kill to do it. And don't expect them to lie down to violence either. Expect retribution.
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That's what happens in war. Don't like it, tell your Government you want the Union Jack taken down at the Stormont and to raise the tri-color. Let the Irish settle their problems. They did it before, they can do it again.
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It is not war unless your opponent is armed and can defend himself. How is a child ...uhhh....
You know I support division of the UK.
Tell the government yourself. Get your *** into the political system and do the work like a man. Not the easy road, not the violent way - do it like civilised people. You don't represent even the majority of N Irish people, far less the majority of the UK population. People see your cause as part of the past. They want to move past it and get on with life. I take it Catholics in NI have equal voting status now, don't they? How are they disadvantaged now. Today?
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Good, your comments turn mine as well. You are defending British "right" in Ireland. The same British Government that have caused 836 years of turmoil in Ireland. I find the Union Jack flying on the isle of Ireland (Hibernia) as an insult.
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No I am not. It is as much an insult to me to have it over Scotland as it is to Ireland. I am defending the right of ordinary people to walk the street without being terrorised. And also the sense in pushing your aims through negotiation, not violence.
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You know that the Manchester bombing was one of the rare times that the British Government knew about it hours before and yet somehow 200 people still got injured.. doesn't that seem a bit weird?
The IRA always called in warnings and gave the location of the area the bomb was in the 90s.
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Yes, it does strike me as weird.
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Do you know how many raids the RUC/PSNI have raided Thomas Murphy? They tried it in March 2006 and they couldn't get him. It took the Irish Government to arrest him the following year on Tax Evasion, which he won't be convicted.
Thomas Murphy is not a person you take your sweet time with. He planned the Warren Point ambush (killing 18 British Soldiers in 1979), He financed the IRA's English bombing campaign of the 90's.. Warrington, Bishopgate, and Canary Wharf and he was in charge of the South Armagh Bridge and Chief of Staff of the Army Council. The British Government wanted him badly.
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Who is STAKEKNIFE?...Pot/kettle.
Indeed, they are onto Murphy. In time, they will get him by process of elimination. If not for terrorism, for tax evasion. Or for dropping litter in the street.
Finny, you are very credible and have the gift of Tony Blair in that you are likeable and when you speak, people often hear and believe what you want them to, even if it's complete bollocks.
But it comes down to this. Violence = bad.
You are a realist, maybe I am not. But you would have us back to the caveman mentality that when the neighbouring tribe does something we don't like, we all pile over there and decimate them. I have read other threads and this may fit with your overall attitude which is usually "survival of the fittest".
IMHO society should move past that, to less violent means of reaching consensus. That is what it is trying to do. There is a political system in place which is nowhere near perfect, but negotiation has got to be preferable to blood and murder.